BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Mary

**Posted by Willow** January 24, 2014 6:49 pm

Davina wrote:
Lots of Madonna-whore in literature and the media in general!

Absolutely; give me enough time and I could put together a searing exposé of John Watson playing Madonna on their stag night

**Posted by lil** January 24, 2014 9:59 pm

Don't forget the damsel in distress- which sadly at the end of the day both Irene and Mary ended up as. ( Sentiment )
The only woman that seemed to stand equally was Janine.
Now she was awesome.

Last edited by lil (January 24, 2014 10:00 pm)

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** January 24, 2014 10:29 pm

Swanpride wrote:
@RavenMorganLeigh I blog regularly about well-done female characters in the media, and believe me, they are really hard to find. Most of them fall into some sort of template for the "strong female character", but truly layered females, those are rare (especially in leading roles).

Oh, definitely, in terms of leading roles-- sure. I'd love to read your blog. :-)

**Posted by Willow** January 24, 2014 11:03 pm

lil wrote:
Don't forget the damsel in distress- which sadly at the end of the day both Irene and Mary ended up as. ( Sentiment )
The only woman that seemed to stand equally was Janine.
Now she was awesome.

But even then she got out from under CAM's thumb by making lots of money from her connection to Sherlock; it's not as if she rescued herself

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** January 25, 2014 12:09 am

Swanpride wrote:
http://swanpride.wordpress.com/

Not just in leading roles...it is in general hard to find really well written female characters. Some shows have several of them, but most just repeat the same old tired cliches.

Awesome, thanks! I look forward to reading. :-)

**Posted by lil** January 25, 2014 12:25 am

Willow wrote:
lil wrote:
Don't forget the damsel in distress- which sadly at the end of the day both Irene and Mary ended up as. ( Sentiment )
The only woman that seemed to stand equally was Janine.
Now she was awesome.
But even then she got out from under CAM's thumb by making lots of money from her connection to Sherlock; it's not as if she rescued herself

Ah but she didn't just slink off in sentiment...she got her own back.
Idk but i thought Sherlocks and it turns out you were just a media whore line...so we're all fine , and they laugh bit , was an acknowledgement that they both knew each were using the other for something....but cld be wrong.

And I don't think cam wanted/could be brought off with money.
Not when he was so rich and fond of flicking faces.

Last edited by lil (January 25, 2014 1:26 am)

**Posted by besleybean** January 25, 2014 8:14 am

Shudder.

**Posted by silverblaze** January 25, 2014 3:26 pm

Swanpride, I'm rather curious of your take on the female characters in Sherlock. I don't think they're so bad as some people make them out to be. Have you written about that?

**Posted by miriel68** January 25, 2014 4:37 pm

However, the principal "damsel in distress" in this season is John Watson, and he is certainly not a female

**Posted by besleybean** January 25, 2014 4:38 pm

Well, between him and Sherlock...

**Posted by clareiow** January 25, 2014 6:19 pm

This is going to sound way off track, but it was something that flagged up to me while I was rewatching the Blind Banker last night. All of the smugglers had a tattoo on their foot for the Black Lotus gang.
When Sherlock was deducing her on the night he met her, he deduced "secret past" and "secret tattoo".
Shen from Black Lotus was working for Moriarty, who "turns up" at the end of HLV. An episode where Mary shoots Sherlock,after somehow breaking into CAMs impenetrable apartment to kill him as he knows her secret.
Could it all be linked, or is my imagination running way too wildly?

**Posted by Willow** January 25, 2014 8:26 pm

clareiow wrote:
This is going to sound way off track, but it was something that flagged up to me while I was rewatching the Blind Banker last night. All of the smugglers had a tattoo on their foot for the Black Lotus gang.
When Sherlock was deducing her on the night he met her, he deduced "secret past" and "secret tattoo".
Shen from Black Lotus was working for Moriarty, who "turns up" at the end of HLV. An episode where Mary shoots Sherlock,after somehow breaking into CAMs impenetrable apartment to kill him as he knows her secret.
Could it all be linked, or is my imagination running way too wildly?

Yes; the secret tattoo is, I suspect, going to be of significance and Moftiss have been scrupulous in avoiding any kind of explanation as to how Mary got into CAM's office/apartment. It doesn't take a genius to note that there are no windows; it's floor to ceiling glass on the exterior walls, so Moffat's oh so casual reference to considering having CAM notice an opened window is a straightforward lie.

I noticed that Mary's rather strange "you're DEAD' statement to Sherlock in TEH is paralleled in HLV with her statement 'he's DEAD' about Moriarty. The first seemed perfectly reasonable on what we knew of her then, but by the end of HLV we know that she's a stone cold killer and yet she seems frightened. There's something strange going on, but then it's Sherlock. It would be strange if there wasn't something strange going on...

**Posted by silverblaze** January 26, 2014 12:17 am

Swanpride wrote:
@silverblaze I have a rule that I only discuss TV shows which have finished their third season (because a lot of female character start great but detoriate very fast), so until now, Sherlock didn't qualify. Now I am in a little bit of a bender if I should pick Molly or Mary. Currently I am leaning towards putting Sherlock on the waiting list until after the fourth season, but I might write a piece about the topic (and the topic of racism for that matter) for my other blog, The Science of Adaptation.

And I agree, I actually think that they were problematic in the first season, but developed to some of the best female characters we currently have on screen.

I like Sally the most. Also because Vingette is brilliant. She should get a spin off in which she solves crimes by sheer sarcasm.

No honestly, I'm quite ok with the characters. The only big mistake IMHO was the end of TBB in which smart professional woman Sarah is suddenly unable to tip her chair to save her life. Made me cringe. But I liked Irene (of course she's gonna lose, she's the villain).
For Mary I've got the feeling that they might do something cool with her in the fourth season, so I'd pick Molly, personally.

To be fair to Moftiss, they use the damsel trope equally for men and women. Poor John is always the most obvious victim. Maybe they pick Mycroft next time.

**Posted by besleybean** January 26, 2014 8:17 am

I hope not!