BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Johnlock: The Official Debate

**Posted by besleybean** April 12, 2014 9:27 pm

So we have the 2 people John loves the most in the world.
I am still not getting why he would marry one and not the other.
It would make more sense if he married neither!

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 12, 2014 9:38 pm

Well, believe me, I don't get why he marries Mary, either. It's not love, at least I don't see it.

**Posted by SusiGo** April 12, 2014 11:42 pm

It may be his wish to lead a "normal life". And of course she helped him to cope with Sherlock's death. But after he came back … well …

**Posted by besleybean** April 13, 2014 7:21 am

Indeed.
Nobody put a gun to John's head!
He freely chose to marry Mary.
Marriage appears to have significnace for some.
I am interested in why he chose Mary and not Sherlock.
I feel this is the nub of the Johnlock debate.

**Posted by Mattlocked** April 13, 2014 7:48 am

besleybean wrote:
So we have the 2 people John loves the most in the world.
I am still not getting why he would marry one and not the other.
It would make more sense if he married neither!

That's a good point. Have to think about that.
Then again, he was already proposing to Mary when Sherlock reappeared. And then he just "went on with what he began"? Maybe he wouldn't have at all if Sherlock had been back a tad earlier?

**Posted by besleybean** April 13, 2014 7:55 am

Possibly it's more about opportunity...
Though maybe John would have still met Mary, even if Sherlock had been around.
But then, maybe Sherlock would have had her sussed...
It could depend if Mary is a 'plant'...
Sorry, I'm turning this thread into a plot analysis, rather than focusing on the relationship!

**Posted by ancientsgate** April 14, 2014 12:59 pm

besleybean wrote:
But why not just live with her, or just go out with her, or just be friends?
Sorry Solar, we cross posted...
But then, why doesn't he marry Sherlock?

In the US we're more and more seeing people (heterosexual people) getting married solely because they want to have children, and the way our society and the tax, insurance and inheritance regulations are set up regarding marriage, it's much more advantageous to have kids inside a legal marriage contract than outside of it.

Could be John is just old-fashioned enough to believe that marrying the woman you love is what you do. "If you like it, put a ring on it," as the Beyonce song says.

He wouldn't marry Sherlock, not without a major shift in John's own self-view. I'm. Not. Gay. and all that protesting he's been doing about his orientation. "How many times do I have to say it? I'm. Not. Gay. Sherlock. Is. Not. My. Boyfriend."

**Posted by ancientsgate** April 14, 2014 1:06 pm

besleybean wrote:
So we have the 2 people John loves the most in the world.
I am still not getting why he would marry one and not the other.
It would make more sense if he married neither!

He thought Sherlock was dead. He waited a while after TRF, and then he did the best he could to get on with life. To most men, that means finding a woman who will make a home with him, help him pay the household expenses, cook for him, and give him sex-- it's just the way heterosexual men are usually wired. And anyway, Sherlock was dead! John dated Mary, had sex with her, started to move his mind around to the idea of keeping her around, he bought a ring, made plans to propose, and then Sherlock showed up with a bottle of champagne and a fake mustache. And the rest is history.... but my point is, he'd made the decision to marry Mary without knowing Sherlock was still around. And John is nothing if not a man of his word-- he said, "I'll marry ya!" to Mary, and he wasn't going back on that.

**Posted by ancientsgate** April 14, 2014 1:57 pm

besleybean wrote:
.....I am interested in why he chose Mary and not Sherlock.
I feel this is the nub of the Johnlock debate.

The writers have made a huge point about John believing that he isn't gay. Over and over again, they've written dialogue for him to protest, loudly, when people assume he's Sherlock's boyfriend. So. Unless the writers change that, give him other words to speak, then he'd never even think of Sherlock in "that way"-- straight men rarely switch their orientation just because they have a good-looking, interesting and available male friend. Go out for a pint or two with him, yes, but kiss him? Ewwww! *smile*

**Posted by besleybean** April 14, 2014 2:06 pm

Well quite.
Obviously you realize, this was my entire point!

**Posted by ancientsgate** April 14, 2014 2:17 pm

besleybean wrote:
Well quite.
Obviously you realize, this was my entire point!

I'm new to the thread, so I don't know what anyone's point is.

IMO Johnlock is for fan fic, and it's best left there. ACD himself and every reincarnation of SH since then have all dealt with a strong undercurrent of unrequited love between Sherlock and John. Their friendship, I believe, was always intended to be "something more"-- transcending the boundaries of ordinary male bonding to something deeper, having to do with trust and loyalty, like blood brothers. But the idea of actually moving them into romance and sexual activity, of actually telling stories that include that, is something that belongs in fan fic, as I said, in my opinion. I honest to god hope TPTB at BBC never, ever decide to actually let S and J do more than just have eye sechs. It's intriguing the way it is, and I think it should stay that way.

Last edited by ancientsgate (April 14, 2014 2:18 pm)

**Posted by tonnaree** April 14, 2014 2:18 pm

Just call me Queen Subtext but I still maintain the "Not Gay" does not automatically equal "Straight."

*bats eyelashes*

**Posted by Harriet** April 14, 2014 2:22 pm

All agree with you, tonnaree

**Posted by ancientsgate** April 14, 2014 2:23 pm

tonnaree wrote:
Just call me Queen Subtext but I still maintain the "Not Gay" does not automatically equal "Straight." *bats eyelashes*

I don't know about that. Surely the writers are playing with us, I see that clearly. But from John's POV, I 100% think he means it. He considers himself straight, and at his age, and after all of that college and medical school, plus years spent in a mostly-male military environment, he oughta know. Just sayin'.

**Posted by besleybean** April 14, 2014 2:24 pm

I agree.
Leave the rest to the conspiracy theorists!
Much of the time I think John is a dork...
But I think he knows himself on this one.
And I'm bound to say:
only in the Sherlock fandom, would people think John marrying Mary was confrimation of him being in love with Sherlock.

Last edited by besleybean (April 14, 2014 2:26 pm)

**Posted by belis** April 14, 2014 2:59 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
tonnaree wrote:
Just call me Queen Subtext but I still maintain the "Not Gay" does not automatically equal "Straight." *bats eyelashes*
I don't know about that. Surely the writers are playing with us, I see that clearly. But from John's POV, I 100% think he means it. He considers himself straight, and at his age, and after all of that college and medical school, plus years spent in a mostly-male military environment, he oughta know. Just sayin'.

Personally I think that he is bisexual. He knows that but doesn't advertise it. Quite to the contrary. It may well be because of his military background. It worth considering that it was only in 2000 that UK armed forced officially lifted the ban on recruiting people who were openly homosexual following a legal challenge by long standing serviceman who were dismissed after their sexuality came to light.

**Posted by besleybean** April 14, 2014 3:50 pm

Well he's not in the army now.
What evidence have you for him being bisexual?

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 14, 2014 3:51 pm

I'm afraid I'm going round in circles, but methinks the lady doth protest too much. I don't even doubt that John honestly believes it when he repeatedly protests "I am not gay!". But stranger things have happened. He wouldn't be the first man in his mid-forties to finally realize that he's not straight. Men divorce their wives because they finally realize or can admit to themselves that they love men.
I hear what he's saying, but I observe something else.

**Posted by besleybean** April 14, 2014 3:59 pm

Well I guess the proof will be in the pudding....
when we eventually see Sherlock and John in a relationship.
This is rather than the current 2 camps of Johnlockers:
1. Sherlock and John are already in a relationship.
2. Hopefully John and Sherlock will one day be in relationship.

Last edited by besleybean (April 14, 2014 8:47 pm)

**Posted by belis** April 14, 2014 4:24 pm

besleybean wrote:
Well he's not in the army now.
What evidence have you for him being bisexual?

No evidence, just an inkling.

He may well not be in an army now but if he has spent years and years surrounded by certain attitudes he is not going to change overnight.