BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

**Posted by maryagrawatson** August 31, 2014 9:01 pm

Liberty wrote:
I wonder, though, if Magnusson really was going to get Mary murdered?

Murdering Mary would have been counter to Magnussen's purposes.

For those who understand these things, Mycroft Holmes is the most powerful man in the country. Well ... apart from me. Mycroft’s pressure point is his junkie detective brother, Sherlock. And Sherlock’s pressure point is his best friend, John Watson. John Watson’s pressure point is his wife. I own John Watson’s wife ... I own Mycroft.

No Mary, the pressure on John is eliminated, which means the pressure on Sherlock is gone, which means no pressure on Mycroft.

Mary

**Posted by SusiGo** August 31, 2014 9:06 pm

Magnussen would never have touched Mary himself. He put pressure on John by telling him that he knew about Mary's enemies and could contact them anytime. I suppose after he got from Mycroft what he wanted Mary's fate would not have mattered to him any longer.

**Posted by tobeornot221b** August 31, 2014 9:21 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Magnussen would never have touched Mary himself. He put pressure on John by telling him that he knew about Mary's enemies and could contact them anytime.

This reminds me of the situation in 221B when Mary asks Sherlock "Who else hates me?" (She makes sure John won't listen.) Sherlock passes her a paper with quite a long list of names on it which implies that he has done some research on Mary.

**Posted by Liberty** August 31, 2014 9:37 pm

Yes, if Mary was dead, Magnusson would have no power over her (and therefore John, and therefore Sherlock, and therefore Mycroft). And also that it doesn't seem to be his MO. We don't see him getting people killed. We see him messing with their minds and driving them to suicide (a recurring them in the series).

So, did Sherlock work that out - that Magnusson was unlikely to get Mary killed?

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** August 31, 2014 9:47 pm

From Ariane Devere:
http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/68754.html

MAGNUSSEN: It works like this, John. I know who Mary hurt and killed.
(He flicks his (John's) cheek again. Sherlock has now lifted his gaze and is looking at him, his expression grim.)
MAGNUSSEN (to John): I know where to find people who hate her.
(He flicks him again, then again. The soldier stares back at him, tolerating it only because he has no choice.)
MAGNUSSEN: I know where they live; I know their phone numbers.
(He flicks him twice more.)
MAGNUSSEN: All in my Mind Palace – all of it.
(Sherlock’s gaze towards him becomes more intense.)
MAGNUSSEN (to John): I could phone them right now and tear your whole life down – and I will ...
(Sherlock’s lips are slightly lifted from his teeth.)
MAGNUSSEN (to John): ... unless you let me flick your face.
(He flicks him three times. Sherlock continues to glare at him with his teeth bared.)
MAGNUSSEN (to John): This is what I do to people. This is what I do to whole countries ...
(He flicks him again, then straightens up.)
MAGNUSSEN: ... just because I know.
(He bends back down to John.)
MAGNUSSEN: Can I do your eye now?
(John turns his head a little, looking away.)
MAGNUSSEN: See if you can keep it open, hmm?
(Almost before John turns back to him, he flicks John’s left eyebrow. John’s eyes instinctively flinch closed. Magnussen sniggers and flicks his eyebrow again.)
MAGNUSSEN: Come on. For Mary. Keep it open.
(He bends his finger under his thumb again.)
JOHN: Sherlock?
SHERLOCK (quietly, his voice apologetic): Let him. I’m sorry.
(Magnussen looks round to him for a moment.)
SHERLOCK: Just ... let him.

**
So, my take is that Magnussen was going to remain a threat to John and Mary---mainly because Magnussen delights in having people under his thumb. And he might have chosen to destroy John and Mary, anyway. Would you trust Magnussen to refrain from hurting John and Mary at some point in the future?

**Posted by Liberty** August 31, 2014 9:56 pm

Yes, I think that Magnusson continually having power over all of them was a good reason for Sherlock to want to get rid of him. But I have to say, that I don't think I realised until tonight that of course Magnusson wouldn't have Mary killed. Sherlock's saving them from that tortured future, rather than saving Mary from death. (With, of course, enough of a risk there for them to have to comply).

**Posted by Zatoichi** September 13, 2014 7:40 am

My current emotion towards HLV:
HLV: *Rips a hole through me, pastes tiny band-aid over it going "There there, everything´s alright now, just a happy little accident, Mary´s good, Sherlock is safe, it´s okay." *
Me:

^^

I still think it´s a masterpiece and deserves aaaall the Emmy´s and other awards, but if they don´t make up for the hurt they´ve caused in S4 I will have to break up with them ^^.

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 13, 2014 7:41 am)

**Posted by besleybean** September 13, 2014 7:55 am

I honestly don't know how you're seeing that.
It was the most exciting of cliffhangers leaving any number of possibilities.

**Posted by Zatoichi** September 13, 2014 8:09 am

I don´t disagree, besley, just getting a bit anxious about all the possibilities and for which they will go.. also I hope it gets clear from the tone that it´s not to be taken too seriously .

**Posted by Liberty** September 13, 2014 8:31 am

Well, this if the first time I've had to wait for an episode. I mean, I've made myself wait up to a couple of weeks between episodes, but I always knew there was the next one waiting. I think I had maybe a week between TRF and TEH. I'm finding the wait difficult this time. I don't know if the wait for S3 was worse, because I haven't experienced, but all that unresolved stuff must have been torture! But I think last time, the big question was how Sherlock faked his death, whereas this time there seem to be more unknowns ... particularly surrounding Mary.

It bothers me that Mary has shown that she would kill Sherlock (given the right motivation) and that's always going to be hanging over them until she gets killed off.

**Posted by besleybean** September 13, 2014 10:00 am

Oh please, killing Sherlock is so 2 years ago!

**Posted by Liberty** September 13, 2014 10:39 am

I found a rather nice little idea on the internet (wish I could claim that I thought of myself). Sherlock's attitude to the white supremacist bothered me a little - I thought it was to show how he would treat people who "deserved to die" (Magnusson), but I didn't feel it was quite in character. Anyway, the internet suggest that perhaps he was protecting Janine. He wanted John to stay focussed on Janine, so gave him a reason not to help the other guy. Thinking of it, it was always actually John's reason, not Sherlock's - after all, it was up to John who he treated, in what order. But if it's true I thought it was rather sweet that Sherlock would try to look after Janine in that way (whilst covering up the fact that he's doing so ).