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June 10, 2012 8:10 pm  #61


Re: The misidentification.

Ok  I  admit I didn't  read this thread all the way  but I want to put my two cents in.   OK  I'm  thinking that it  was Irene herself on the slab.   Somehow she was given a tablet to make her heart stop  by  ANOTHER   morgue assistant (hired by Moriarty of course)   and  her face was made to look a bit  bashed in  by  make up.   When  Molly  put the dead body  back into its cubbyhole,  she left,  and.....you get the picture.   that's  how I think  Sherlock ID'd her.


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SHERLOCK!!!!!!
 

June 11, 2012 2:39 am  #62


Re: The misidentification.

kazza474 wrote:

Author: kazza474
Sherlock's Dictaphone data  :

I'm confused, kazza474 -- what is this from?  Can't tell if there's actually "Sherlock's Dictaphone data" somewhere (like John's blog and Sherlock's site) or if you're the actual author stepping into Sherlock's mind.  Enlighten me!

 

June 11, 2012 2:41 am  #63


Re: The misidentification.

That was my explanation of what I believe happened; yes stepping into the character of Sherlock to explain things from his perspective.
It's a useful tool in getting your ideas across.


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Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

June 11, 2012 2:46 am  #64


Re: The misidentification.

Through reading this it is obvious why Sherlock made a mistake.
Right from the start he had trouble 'reading' anything about this woman when she was naked.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

June 13, 2012 1:34 pm  #65


Re: The misidentification.

I think, most likely, he just didn't want to know. He wanted fast confirmation and for once he was manipulated by his emotions:

His heart said "No, I can't look at this, it's definitely her, let's move on." And his head obeyed. He didn't look at her for long. Definitely not long enough to evaluate every possible physical difference. He just glanced at her and said "That's her." The body double was similar enough that he just didn't want to think about it.


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Initials SH and proud owner of a viola named Watson.

Potential flatmates should know the worst about each other.

It's a three patch problem.

I didn't know; I saw.
 

June 13, 2012 1:47 pm  #66


Re: The misidentification.

Smoggy_London_Air wrote:

I think, most likely, he just didn't want to know. He wanted fast confirmation and for once he was manipulated by his emotions:

His heart said "No, I can't look at this, it's definitely her, let's move on." And his head obeyed. He didn't look at her for long. Definitely not long enough to evaluate every possible physical difference. He just glanced at her and said "That's her." The body double was similar enough that he just didn't want to think about it.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner Spot on analysis as usual!


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Disguise is always a self portrait
 

June 14, 2012 3:09 am  #67


Re: The misidentification.

Why wouldn't he want to know?
He held his emotions together quite well when Mrs Hudson was bashed, yet you believe he'd be some quivering mess by looking at his 'supposed' love interest?! Mrs Hudson is like family to him.
And again, he'd be 'emotional' over this woman if she's dead but has no qualms in tearing her apart verbally when he unlocks the phone?

I'll step away from this because I cannot see how this works. Basically you're saying he's schizophrenic; sways from one extreme to the other in this show. That's not Sherlock Holmes.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

June 14, 2012 10:00 am  #68


Re: The misidentification.

I really think it's just not as complicated as all that...

1. Irene knows the morgue attendant (or knows what he likes).
2. She asks him to locate a body that has the same measurements as her
3. They "bash up" the face, or ideally, the face was bashed up anyway
4. Sherlock identifies her from her measurements and not her face


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June 18, 2012 5:11 pm  #69


Re: The misidentification.

I think with Mrs. Hudson he held it together because from previous experience he knew that if he lost it so would Mrs Hudson. Besides, when Mrs Hudson gets attacked he has something that he can actively do: throw the perpetrators out the window. That is where he directs his rage. With Irene, there are no perpetrators he can attack or go after. He has nowhere to direct his rage, and no one around to control himself for the sake of.

Molly, although occasionally fragile emotionally, is hardly a weakling and can handle herself, so he sees no point in holding himself in check for her sake.


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Initials SH and proud owner of a viola named Watson.

Potential flatmates should know the worst about each other.

It's a three patch problem.

I didn't know; I saw.
 

August 19, 2012 7:51 am  #70


Re: The misidentification.

I don't think we should read too much into this misidentification. The character of Irene Adler is supposed to be an equal to Sherlock, someone who had not ever encountered before (apart from Moriarty), Irene would evoke certain emotions from Sherlock and have him intrigued. So if Sherlock is adamant that Irene has died because she had sent him her camera phone, he would have not reason to doubt the body on the slab is Irene. I think she simply outsmarted Sherlock.

 

June 30, 2014 1:33 pm  #71


Re: The misidentification.

I know this is an old thread, but there is so much good stuff here, I thought it was better to reply rather than start a new one.  I hope that's OK.

The misidentification really bothered me when I first watched the episode (just a few days ago), and I've been going over and over it in my mind.   I've come to the conclusion that Sherlock must have known that it wasn't Irene.

The point is made that Sherlock got a good look at Irene's body, a really good look.   Enough that he could judge her measurements accurately.  Yes, it might have been possible to modify a body of the right build in the way people have mentioned - but I think Sherlock would notice that, particularly when he's looking at the body with the sole purpose of identifying it, including any signs that the body was being presented as somebody else.   Why would he definitely be looking for those signs?   Because the bashed in face is such an obvious giveaway that somebody is trying to hide the identity of the body. 

I know it could be argued that he is so upset about Irene's death that he makes a mistake.  It's possible, but it didn't ring true for me.  If he cared so much, I feel he'd have instinctively looked for hope that it wasn't Irene, and he'd have found it. 

Given all that, I think Sherlock knows right away that it isn't Irene.   He's covering for her.  In fact, I think he probably knows when he sees the face (the sign that the body isn't what it seems), and looks at the body to confirm what he already knows.   And perhaps to give a more convincing positive identification. 

I'm not sure when he knows that Irene is faking her death, but it could be even earlier, when he finds the phone.   He phones Mycroft and plants the idea in his head that a body will be found that night.  He doesn't try to stop the death, even though it would seem that Irene was alive at that point (she sent the text) and could be saved. 

Earlier on, when Sherlock took Irene's phone, she said that it was her life and she would die before she let him take it (which is why the phone seems to be a clue that she's going to die).   She then says "It's my protection" and he says "it was".  I don't suppose he knows it in that moment, but he's right: the phone isn't her protection any more, he is.  When he unlocks her phone and gives it to Mycroft he tells her that she won't survive long without her protection.   But she does survive, because her protection is him, not the phone. 

It could be that Irene tried to fool him by sending the text and the phone.  But I don't think she believed that the body would have fooled him.   I think she knew that he would collude with her in faking her disappearance (as he does again, at the end). 

I'll probably change my mind again, but that's where I am now.  I don't think the misidentification is a flaw in the writing (as I first thought), but a deliberate clue to what was going on in Sherlock's unfathomable mind.

Last edited by Liberty (June 30, 2014 2:29 pm)

 

April 18, 2015 5:28 pm  #72


Re: The misidentification.

I have another "solution" to offer: As Sherlock's brain took a (very) brief holiday "downstairs" when he looked at naked Irene , he didn't notice any details beyond her measurements  and has not much to compare the dead body to.
However, I really, really want Liberty (and Aurora with her alternative solution in the very first post) to be right! Sherlock playing along with Irene, for whatever reason, offers so many interesting possibilities for fanfic...
Seriously I think it most likely was just another plot hole

 

April 18, 2015 6:31 pm  #73


Re: The misidentification.

I don't know - it seems too planned to be a plot hole, doesn't it?   Why make the point that Sherlock could identify Irene (he sees her naked and knows her measurements), then have him actually identify her and get it wrong, if not to show he was bluffing?   It could be to show that he's so in love and traumatised by her death that he gets it wrong, but I'm not sure I buy that.  Even John admits that he just doesn't know if Sherlock is upset or not, and Sherlock is very circumspect about his state of mind.  He's still fascinated enough to write a song for her, probably missing her, but it's not clear if he's actually grieving. 

It also fits with the end too, when he does a similar thing, hinting to John (and Mycroft?) that he's devastated, but secretly covering for Irene again.  I do think it's a bit mean of him to worry John, both times, but I think he does it keep Irene safe (it later becomes clear that he thinks John can't keep a secret).  It feels too neat to be a plot hole, I think.

Last edited by Liberty (April 18, 2015 6:32 pm)

 

April 18, 2015 6:58 pm  #74


Re: The misidentification.

Liberty wrote:

I don't know - it seems too planned to be a plot hole, doesn't it?   ....

Unfortunately, the more often I watch the show and the more I think about it, the less sense the whole story makes.... I'll have something to say about the Bond Air project, as well (elsewhere)

Realistically I think that Mofiss didn't expect us to dissect the characters' every word and every glance. They wrote what seemed like a good story at the time.

So I think that Steven Moffat never worried about the too-short-delay between (presumably/maybe/probably not) Irene's text message "Mantlepiece" (and HOW did the package get there?) and the appearance of the body. That he never wondered how difficult it would be to find an exact body double (though they had one for the filming - maybe why we don't get to see the body) and the gruesome goings-on that would entail. Moffat wrote what seemed entertaining and made sense to him at the time.

In real life, I think that's what happened. Unfortunately, that attitude pretty much makes all the discussions superfluous and it's still sooo long till the Christmas special!

So, let's forget about real life and rather speculate about WHY Sherlock lied for Irene - much more fun!




 

 

April 18, 2015 7:50 pm  #75


Re: The misidentification.

Yes, you could well be right.  There are other parts where what they've written quite work and they've even admitted to not doing enough research at times. 

But I think that Sherlock deliberately misidentifying the body does seem to hold together with everything else.  Or maybe I just want to believe it because it does fit so well.  As he covers for her later, then why not earlier? 

Why he lied?  I think because he's attracted to her (lots of mirroring going on), because he almost put her at risk of death, because he's intrigued and likes a puzzle, and possibly partly because Mycroft put him on the case then told him to back off.   Irene takes a huge risk so must know that he would co-operate. 

 

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