BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The Final Problem: First impressions

Sherli Bakerst · January 16, 2017 7:22 am

OMG, OMG, OMG! I loved this episode! I think it was definitely one of the strongest ones in the whole series. Even though there were a number of things that didn't really make sense. Like -- how Euros actually got out and how she managed to do all the technical things at Sherrinford and how she managed to get Moriarty on all the screens. (I guess she put a guard under her spell but how did he manage to broadcast Moriarty to all of Britain?) I mean, I get that she was supposed to be some kind of "super witch" with amazing powers but still... But the dynamics between Sherlock and Mycroft and John were wonderful. The acting was superb.

I think this episode is the perfect way to end "Sherlock." The postscript by Mary really made it seem like it was the end of the show, to me anyway. And while I wish the series could go on and on, I really don't see how it can, not after this particular episode. This wrapped everything up very nicely -- I loved how Lestrade said Sherlock wasn't a great man but he was a good man -- and I think anything that came after this would kind of be a letdown because this episode was so deep, so heart-pounding, so traumatic, so revealing. As a result of what he experienced in this episode, as well as everything that has happened before, Sherlock is human now (so is Mycroft) and I don't think there's any more character development left to do. While it would certainly be fun to see Sherlock and John do more detecting, I don't actually need to see it. I'm satisfied with the series as it is and I think it's completed its story-telling arc.

Now I'm off to read what everyone else thinks!

Last edited by Sherli Bakerst (January 16, 2017 7:25 am)

gently69 · January 16, 2017 7:32 am

Tilly11 wrote:
gently69 wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
To me more than half of the episode was filler.....those little games seem to be only there to fill time. It didn't feel like we learned anything new or profound about any of the characters during it.
Sadly I have to agree. There were maybe a handful of scenes that touched me in one way or another. But is that enough for the so it seems final episode ever? Not for me.
After TLD I had hope. Now after Mary (why???) having the (very) last words I'm just sad and mostly disappointed.
Happy to respectfully disagree.

We learned a LOT about Sherlock, John, and Mycroft during those "little games"!!!

Each room was a trial for the trio of Sherlock, Watson and Mycroft. Evil Euros was testing them, and in her warped twisted perverted way deriving pleasure and information by watching their dynamics, their interactions. It was painful to watch, and just as it became too tedious to bear, it changed, and Sherlock understood it.

We learned about each of them. John was brave, compassionate, and *almost* able to kill a man. (who, frankly, was not innocent. He got what he deserved when he killed himself ((I know that sounds harsh)) for defying orders regarding contact with Euros. He wrought his own, and his wife's, desruction) Mycroft couldn't do it. He was physically ill as a result of the suicide. That weakness in itself was SO enlightening! These trials showed Sherlock and John to be MUCH stronger men than Mycroft!

Sherlock proved willing to kill himself rather than kill his brother or John.

Mycroft tried to provoke Sherlock to kill HIM rather than John. Sherlock knew his brother well enough to see through him.

The trio's compassion for the girl on the plane compelled them to comply with Euros. Otherwise she had no power over them. This was a powerful act of compassion on their part. They put the needs of the one ahead of the needs of themselves.

Mary was us, the audience, in the final words of the episode. She spoke what we would say to and about the two men she loves, and who she knows love each other.

I didn't learn much that was really new for me. In most of the scenes I was nearly sure how Sherlock, John and Mycroft would react. That was in a way predictable. For me.
And I didn't feel represented by Mary with the last words. I wouldn't want an ending like this.

Last edited by gently69 (January 16, 2017 7:38 am)

gently69 · January 16, 2017 7:37 am

ewige wrote:
gently69 wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
To me more than half of the episode was filler.....those little games seem to be only there to fill time. It didn't feel like we learned anything new or profound about any of the characters during it.
Sadly I have to agree. There were maybe a handful of scenes that touched me in one way or another. But is that enough for the so it seems final episode ever? Not for me.
After TLD I had hope. Now after Mary (why???) having the (very) last words I'm just sad and mostly disappointed.
Maybe you could give it another try? I appreciated the mind games and the way Eurus gradually took Sherlock apart better the second time.

About Mary having the last word: she's dead, she's entitled. Or would you rather Mycroft does it? Because Mary speaks for Mark and Steven. I can live with that.

I will certainly watch it once more. But if the first impression is that strong... I don't believe in major changes. Maybe one or another thing I will feel better with but...

besleybean · January 16, 2017 7:39 am

I have got about 10 mins before I need to go and get ready for work...once again had to trawl through 18 pages of new posts, to set up my notifications!
So I can't even look at any body else's responses, just now.
I've said some stuff on other threads, but a brief summary:
1. I enjoyed a wonderful cinema experience.
2. Thankfully as I had hoped the apparent major spoiler I'd seen, turned out to be a false alarm.
3. ANDREW SCOTT: once again he absolutely stole the show. The whole cinema was cheering,screaming and laughing at him. And this episode has given me my new best ever BBC Sherlock line...can you all guess what it was? I honestly thought I was going to explode!
4.Well I loved the episode. They threw everything at it, but it worked and I am happy at the point they have left the story.
5. Amanda's little piece in our cinema extra, it was lovely and I really enjoyed it.
6. Hopefully hubby(and maybe daughter too) and I will watch it again tonight.
Ok 5 more mins, what else to say?
7. How brilliant was Sian? That was such a difficult role and she nailed it.
8. Heartbreaking final revelation about Redbeard.
Oh I'm about to go: but apparently Sian is on BBC Breakfast this morning.

Harobed · January 16, 2017 7:43 am

Dumai wrote:
I wonder if all those hints are just to satisfy us in some way or if they tell us that theres going to be more...+

For those who havent seen it already: http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-01-15/mark-gatiss-and-steven-moffat-reveal-where-sherlock-could-go-in-series-5

Just want to say Thank You for providing this link.
I had not seen it before & found several side roads rich with Sherlockian nuggets!

gently69 · January 16, 2017 7:46 am

Just found a post on tumblr which are partly my feelings. Though Johnlock isn't essential for me.
http://a-candle-for-sherlock.tumblr.com/post/155933825317/sherlockandjohnaregay-the-real-and-gay-ending-of

And I like this comment:
Mary, they were never YOUR boys, but they will always be ours.

Last edited by gently69 (January 16, 2017 7:51 am)

This Is The Phantom Lady · January 16, 2017 8:32 am

I think what I'm most dissapointed in is how the fandom has reacted since it's release. The negativity and hate on tumblr, and here too...

People having to defend why they liked it...

all this after the mass sharing of spoilers etc.

I'm sorry. I know it's okay to state your honest opinion; and I don't want to live in a world where you are forced to be positive about anything and can't say what you want.

But really... it's depressing to me.

I still need to rewatch the episode, but right now I just don't feel good... and that's down to this fandom pulling itself apart.

WhoIWantToBe · January 16, 2017 8:48 am

Swanpride wrote:
What I do enjoy is clever editing (which we got in the second episode of this season in spades, but not so much in the other two),

Sorry to snip so much of your quote, I thought you might be interested in knowing you picked up on something pretty solid. I asked around and it turns out cinematographer Neville Kidd and editor Yann Miles worked together on TLD. Those two are DYNAMITE so the combo of the cinematography and editing (which are barely divorced from each other now) is probably why you found this to be enjoyable.

Also, they worked together on His Last Vow apparently, which I can absolutley see now on reflection.

Also, Neville did the cinemtography on The Abominable Bride :D Which is a claer fan favourite.

Last edited by WhoIWantToBe (January 16, 2017 8:49 am)

Harobed · January 16, 2017 8:50 am

Kae Em wrote:
Wow, what a ride this episode took me on! I will have to sleep over it and then watch it again before commenting more on it, but I loved almost all of it. I think after this episode Mycroft definitly made it to the top of my favourites list.

Agree!
Love how things, events, memories distorted & memories true added even more depth to the characters + somewhat provide fodder for eccentricity with abborant behaviors & thought & boy oh boy wouldn't this be a psychiatrists dream?!
Based on scientific studies it has been found that people can conciously as well as unconciously alter a painful memory (or erase it completely) in order to carry on with life's bumpy road, rather than be crippled by the events, rendering oneself incapable of functioning in society...

Sherli Bakerst · January 16, 2017 9:00 am

So I've now read all the comments in this thread -- Wow. And they made me think of something that I just want to throw out to see what you all think:

1) Euros/Euros: She's a genius but hyper-emotional. In fact, her emotions override everything.
2) If you say her name out loud, it comes out as, more or less -- Yer ohs (phonetically speaking). Or -- Yourohs. Tweak it slightly and it could be -- You're Us.
3) Extrapolating... Euros/Eurus/You're Us is all the emotions that Mycroft and Sherlock have subjugated in themselves. She, the sister, is the flip side or the mirror opposite to the brothers. She has enough emotion for the two of them.
4) Euros/Eurus is what happens if emotions escape. Euros/Eurus is emotions. You're Us is the enemy. Emotions are the enemy.
5) Sherlock and Mycroft have subsumed their emotions and focused on their intellect because they know what can happen if they let their emotions get the better of them. Like they more or less said in ASiB (I think it was that episode). They have seen what their sister does/is and, even if Sherlock doesn't remember it, they didn't want any part of it. Perhaps because they know that if they do allow themselves to feel emotion, they know they'll have a hard time controlling themselves, as witness Sherlock's destruction of the coffin. And they both have too much humanity to want to become like their sister.

It's late and maybe I'm just rambling or maybe there's something to this theory. You decide!

Ichneumon · January 16, 2017 9:10 am

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:
I think what I'm most dissapointed in is how the fandom has reacted since it's release. The negativity and hate on tumblr, and here too...

People having to defend why they liked it...

all this after the mass sharing of spoilers etc.

I'm sorry. I know it's okay to state your honest opinion; and I don't want to live in a world where you are forced to be positive about anything and can't say what you want.

But really... it's depressing to me.

I completely agree. I find the reaction of some of the "fans" truly terrible. It's fine you did not like the episode/series but that does not give you the right to shout abuse at the creators or people who liked it. Be sad, be angry, be disappointed, that's alright. But what about being grateful to the people who made this show possible in the first place?
If I started writing nasty messages to every author or director who ever killed a character I liked, wrote something I didn't like or moved the plot in a direction different from what I would have wanted, I would be quite busy.

I liked TFP. We got a swordbrella! We got Holmes family flashbacks! I loved the interaction between Sherlock, John and Mycroft and Sherlock being genuinely kind to his brother instead of bickering. I loved the scene where he told Greg to look after his brother, it reminded me of TAB and Mycroft telling John the same.
I even liked the Sherrinford setting and found Euros was a chilling villain. The "we never had a dog"-twist really got me. I actually felt sick for a moment.

Liberty · January 16, 2017 9:23 am

I can actually completely understand people not liking it so much. It is different to the other episodes, and although I think Sherlock has always been "fantasy" to some degree, it's much more evident here. I'm surprised Moftiss didn't think this was the divisive one, rather than TLD. I expected something more harrowing after the build-up - I know the themes were really dark, but there was something kind of fun and exciting about it. Hopefully there are things to enjoy even for people for whom it's not a favourite episode.

SolarSystem · January 16, 2017 10:32 am

Ichneumon wrote:
I completely agree. I find the reaction of some of the "fans" truly terrible. It's fine you did not like the episode/series but that does not give you the right to shout abuse at the creators or people who liked it. Be sad, be angry, be disappointed, that's alright. But what about being grateful to the people who made this show possible in the first place?
If I started writing nasty messages to every author or director who ever killed a character I liked, wrote something I didn't like or moved the plot in a direction different from what I would have wanted, I would be quite busy.

And who exactly on this forum has been shouting abuse at the writers or at other fans...?
I am aware that this is a fan forum, and believe me: I am a fan of this show just like everybody else. I am not writing nasty messages to anyone. Just like a lot of other fans who are disappointed, I am writing here about my disappointment because I have been writing on this forum for over three years now. Because I love the show. And because that makes it even harder to admit to myself that S4 didn't really work for me, TLD being the huge exception. Yes, believe it or not, I think TLD was great. But for me TFP wasn't. So am I only allowed to talk about TLD on this forum now?
Seriously. this has nothing to do with loyalty. Loyalty for loyalty's sake is a bit ridiculous, if you ask me.And it has nothing to do with my expectations or what I wanted the writers to give to me. I has to do with what I see when I watch the episodes. Pure and simple.
And if people on tumblr are behaving nasty, then go to tumblr and tell them and don't bring this over here to this forum. I have only read opinions here, no nasty comments.

Kae Em · January 16, 2017 10:38 am

SolarSystem wrote:
Ichneumon wrote:
I completely agree. I find the reaction of some of the "fans" truly terrible. It's fine you did not like the episode/series but that does not give you the right to shout abuse at the creators or people who liked it. Be sad, be angry, be disappointed, that's alright. But what about being grateful to the people who made this show possible in the first place?
If I started writing nasty messages to every author or director who ever killed a character I liked, wrote something I didn't like or moved the plot in a direction different from what I would have wanted, I would be quite busy.
And who exactly on this forum has been shouting abuse at the writers or at other fans...?

I don't think they were referring to people in this forum, but to people on Twitter an Tumblr. There's some really nasty stuff going on there. Some people just seem to have lost all human decency and seem to have forgotten that after all, it's just a series.

Last edited by Kae Em (January 16, 2017 10:39 am)

This Is The Phantom Lady · January 16, 2017 10:42 am

What my problem is, though (and bear in mind I am a very sensitive piece of work) but I saw what I felt was rude messages between members here, and maybe I missed some sarcasm or what ever... but that is what broke my spirits.

This is reminding me of what happened after Michael Jackson died... his fans dividing... turning sour... fighting over what was right and what wasn't.

And the show isn't even dead. Why are people acting as if it's an actual fact? Tell me, and show me who said "The show is over, we will never, ever, ever make another. Too bad"

nakahara · January 16, 2017 10:42 am

SolarSystem wrote:
Ichneumon wrote:
I completely agree. I find the reaction of some of the "fans" truly terrible. It's fine you did not like the episode/series but that does not give you the right to shout abuse at the creators or people who liked it. Be sad, be angry, be disappointed, that's alright. But what about being grateful to the people who made this show possible in the first place?
If I started writing nasty messages to every author or director who ever killed a character I liked, wrote something I didn't like or moved the plot in a direction different from what I would have wanted, I would be quite busy.
And who exactly on this forum has been shouting abuse at the writers or at other fans...?
I am aware that this is a fan forum, and believe me: I am a fan of this show just like everybody else. I am not writing nasty messages to anyone. Just like a lot of other fans who are disappointed, I am writing here about my disappointment because I have been writing on this forum for over three years now. Because I love the show. And because that makes it even harder to admit to myself that S4 didn't really work for me, TLD being the huge exception. Yes, believe it or not, I think TLD was great. But for me TFP wasn't. So am I only allowed to talk about TLD on this forum now?
Seriously. this has nothing to do with loyalty. Loyalty for loyalty's sake is a bit ridiculous, if you ask me.And it has nothing to do with my expectations or what I wanted the writers to give to me. I has to do with what I see when I watch the episodes. Pure and simple.
And if people on tumblr are behaving nasty, then go to tumblr and tell them and don't bring this over here to this forum. I have only read opinions here, no nasty comments.

Of course everybody has the right to like or dislike an episode and to speak about their feelings about the narrative, that´s what the forum is for.

Ichneumon · January 16, 2017 10:43 am

SolarSystem wrote:
And who exactly on this forum has been shouting abuse at the writers or at other fans...?
I am aware that this is a fan forum, and believe me: I am a fan of this show just like everybody else. I am not writing nasty messages to anyone. Just like a lot of other fans who are disappointed, I am writing here about my disappointment because I have been writing on this forum for over three years now. Because I love the show. And because that makes it even harder to admit to myself that S4 didn't really work for me, TLD being the huge exception. Yes, believe it or not, I think TLD was great. But for me TFP wasn't. So am I only allowed to talk about TLD on this forum now?
Seriously. this has nothing to do with loyalty. Loyalty for loyalty's sake is a bit ridiculous, if you ask me.And it has nothing to do with my expectations or what I wanted the writers to give to me. I has to do with what I see when I watch the episodes. Pure and simple.
And if people on tumblr are behaving nasty, then go to tumblr and tell them and don't bring this over here to this forum. I have only read opinions here, no nasty comments.

I wasn't talking about this forum and I'm very sorry if anyone thought that and feels offended!

This is a "first impressions" thread and the reaction of parts of the fandom on tumblr, twitter etc. after the preview and the Russian leak influenced my first impression of the episode and my mood while watching before I even saw it myself. I do not intend to start a fight here and I was reacting to Phantom Ladys post.

SolarSystem · January 16, 2017 10:44 am

Kae Em wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
Ichneumon wrote:
I completely agree. I find the reaction of some of the "fans" truly terrible. It's fine you did not like the episode/series but that does not give you the right to shout abuse at the creators or people who liked it. Be sad, be angry, be disappointed, that's alright. But what about being grateful to the people who made this show possible in the first place?
If I started writing nasty messages to every author or director who ever killed a character I liked, wrote something I didn't like or moved the plot in a direction different from what I would have wanted, I would be quite busy.
And who exactly on this forum has been shouting abuse at the writers or at other fans...?

I don't think they were referring to people in this forum, but to people on Twitter an Tumblr. There's some really nasty stuff going on there. Some people just seem to have lost all human decency and seem to have forgotten that after all, it's just a series.

Yes, well, and like I said at the end of my post: then go to tumblr and twitter and tell those people your opinion. This forum has nothing to do with it, so why mixing all those things together?

Harobed · January 16, 2017 10:50 am

WhoIWantToBe wrote:
Meretricious wrote:
I am actually crying because I'm so angry and upset. How stupid!

I think I need therapy, a tv show should not be able to make me feel this way!
I am not sure which part is upsetting you Meretricious, but I think that being upset overall is a valid feeling either way. That's what happens when we have such a long wait between episodes, and with the talent on screen in front of us doing such a damn good job. We see potential. have expectations to a standard, and afterwards its a bit like being a kid the day after Christmas.

This is an honest question, to mods and other long standing members of the forum, should we open another thread for the criticism or keep it to this thread? I am sensitive to spoiling the buzz others have for their enjoyment of the ep (and season), but I think perhaps another place to discuss where this season went as a whole for those who are critical and want to engage in that conversation, may be best.

Wow what a beautiful, polite, considerate & kind reply with a great idea, to boot!
I am one of those whose mind has been royally blown (with wild glee & abandon!) & have felt a little deflated, or let down, and my "buzz" slightly dampened when immediately after it ended I zoomed over here (I watched it alone except for my 2 kitties) with stars in my eyes almost giddy from such mad genius writing + acting, expecting everybody here to be just as happy only to find one harsh criticism after another! 😢

Your suggestion of creating a thread exclusively for those who want to express dissapointment & using these general threads for the happiest fans to dissect the series would help to provide an uninterrupted flow of feelings & thought!
Let's try that! ✌

gently69 · January 16, 2017 10:51 am

Kae Em wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
Ichneumon wrote:
I completely agree. I find the reaction of some of the "fans" truly terrible. It's fine you did not like the episode/series but that does not give you the right to shout abuse at the creators or people who liked it. Be sad, be angry, be disappointed, that's alright. But what about being grateful to the people who made this show possible in the first place?
If I started writing nasty messages to every author or director who ever killed a character I liked, wrote something I didn't like or moved the plot in a direction different from what I would have wanted, I would be quite busy.
And who exactly on this forum has been shouting abuse at the writers or at other fans...?

I don't think they were referring to people in this forum, but to people on Twitter an Tumblr. There's some really nasty stuff going on there. Some people just seem to have lost all human decency and seem to have forgotten that after all, it's just a series.

Phantom mentioned there is nastiness in this forum too.

And for me loyalty cannot be equated with giving up your own opinion. I don't like people telling me what to think. And imply I "would just not understand".

Last edited by gently69 (January 16, 2017 10:52 am)