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January 9, 2017 1:34 pm  #61


Re: John's violence

The show now has a long history of showing and forgiving violence. I wonder if it is some male thing?

Personally, I can understand where John's anger comes from. Forgiving him is easier for me than forgiving Mary shooting Sherlock. The pain it caused should be about the same, the danger for Sherlock was bigger after being shot.


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January 9, 2017 1:36 pm  #62


Re: John's violence

I just remembered, John also confesses to Greg.
Greg says "you probably saved his life." And John doesn't comment, but says
"I hit him Greg, I hit him really hard."

What bothers me a bit is the "He is entitled." from Sherlock. That is really strong.


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January 9, 2017 2:14 pm  #63


Re: John's violence

Whisky wrote:

I just remembered, John also confesses to Greg.
Greg says "you probably saved his life." And John doesn't comment, but says
"I hit him Greg, I hit him really hard."

What bothers me a bit is the "He is entitled." from Sherlock. That is really strong.

Yes, John is aware of what he did, and he feels bad about it. I do hope there will be an apology in the next episode.

And, yes, that line from Sherlock is almost worse. I don't think John was entitled, not at all.


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January 9, 2017 2:25 pm  #64


Re: John's violence

For what it's worth.

I do not believe John and Sherlock have an abusive relationship.  They are both emotionally F**ked up in their own ways and often deal with things in the worse way possible.

As far as the beating in TLD goes John had reached an inhuman level of pain.  Rage, grief, fear, he snapped.  I cannot condone his actions but I can still look at him with love and compassion.  I have survived great losses.  I have said and done things in my grief that I am not proud of.  I can look at John and forgive him.  I can't just decide that he is a terrible person who deserves to be hated.  He made a horrible mistake, but he is only human like the rest of us.


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January 9, 2017 2:28 pm  #65


Re: John's violence

Whisky - thanks, that is very similar  to my opinion. 

I do not approve violence but it seems very unfair to judge John as it was in normal situation. So in his situation and state of mind it is understandable and Sherlock understands it, too.  I do not believe he intended to seriously harm Sherlock but might have. As well as Rosie might have died when Mary was drugged even if nobody wanted it. 
Almost everything Sherlock did was his decision and John had to accept. He did a lot , sacrificed himself but it was all without asking John if he wanted it. 
I really hate this approach - manipulate somebody to some situation because you know what is the best for him and then blame him that he is not thankful enough (which Sherlock does not do at least), so I can understand how ambivalent John's feelings may be in such situations. 

I do  not want to approve John's violence just do not agree when he is blamed for something that Sherlock accepts (finally) when John has been accepting mental manipulation from Sherlock  for years and nobody seems to mind . 

Let's them cope with it. They seem to be perfectly capable to do it .
 

Last edited by Preceja (January 9, 2017 2:33 pm)

 

January 9, 2017 2:38 pm  #66


Re: John's violence

I wholeheartedly agree with you, tonnaree and Precia!


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January 9, 2017 2:41 pm  #67


Re: John's violence

But I don't think there is any mental violence from Sherlock. 

Tonnaree, I can understand John's feelings.  I was kind of defending them last episode - I could felt I could understand him being so angry and shutting Sherlock out, even though it wasn't fair.  I suppose the difference here is not only that it has come to fairly extreme physical violence, but there seems to be (as with TEH!) an acceptance by both of them that this was OK.   John kind of apologises but not about that.  I think there's some ground between OK, and terrible person who needs to be hated.  

Anyway, I have already dealt with it in TEH so I feel I can kind of accept it and move on. 

 

January 9, 2017 3:44 pm  #68


Re: John's violence

nakahara wrote:

Not if the "few punches" start evolving into a pattern.....

We know that John has a problem to cope with a big grief. But if the pattern is that he will punch Sherlock every time when somebody whom he loves dies , Sherlock is somehow involved and the makes something stupid like use drugs and attack other people or make stupid joke instead of apology, I can accept it . 

Anyway, there are not many people left that are important for John and some must survive (hope all) . 

 

January 9, 2017 4:31 pm  #69


Re: John's violence

Well, Sherlock at least!


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January 9, 2017 5:00 pm  #70


Re: John's violence

Liberty wrote:

But I don't think there is any mental violence from Sherlock. 

Tonnaree, I can understand John's feelings.  I was kind of defending them last episode - I could felt I could understand him being so angry and shutting Sherlock out, even though it wasn't fair.  I suppose the difference here is not only that it has come to fairly extreme physical violence, but there seems to be (as with TEH!) an acceptance by both of them that this was OK.   John kind of apologises but not about that.  I think there's some ground between OK, and terrible person who needs to be hated.  

Anyway, I have already dealt with it in TEH so I feel I can kind of accept it and move on. 

"an acceptance by both of them that this was OK. " 
Just one example of how they are both F**ed up.

"John kind of apologises but not about that
John Watson does not talk about his feelings.  Especially the most important ones.  This is another reason why his speech to "Mary" and Sherlock at the end of the episode is so important.  He may not have specifically apologized for hitting Sherlock but he was trying to own his actions and admit how wrong he was.

 


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"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

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January 9, 2017 5:03 pm  #71


Re: John's violence

I don't know ... I kind of get the feeling that they both accept it.  That it had to be done, to get John out of the state he was in.  I don't think Sherlock expects or wants him to apologise. 

 

January 9, 2017 5:06 pm  #72


Re: John's violence

I agree, Liberty.


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January 9, 2017 6:05 pm  #73


Re: John's violence

Exactly, Liberty!

Just because John did X and Sherlock did Y doesn't give either of them the right to purposefully retaliate in such a way. John could have vented his anger in some other way, but by kicking the person he believes was to blame? That's not cool. Ever.

It is what it is, as Sherlock said. (Not exactly in context, but true.) They can't undo what happened, but John really needs to get a grip on his emotions.

 

January 9, 2017 6:07 pm  #74


Re: John's violence

I am hoping John has moved on and will now be supportive to Sherlock.


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January 9, 2017 8:55 pm  #75


Re: John's violence

Preceja wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Not if the "few punches" start evolving into a pattern.....

We know that John has a problem to cope with a big grief. But if the pattern is that he will punch Sherlock every time when somebody whom he loves dies , Sherlock is somehow involved and the makes something stupid like use drugs and attack other people or make stupid joke instead of apology, I can accept it . 

It was not only big grief that made him react that way. In TRF he headbutted the chief inspector for calling Sherlock a vigilante. At time it seemed like he is "defending Sherlock´s honour" but now it´s obvious that this was anything but: John himself calls Sherlock´s worse names than that and also, he does not hesitate to actually hurt Sherlock (something that chief inspector´s words could never manage).

No, I think the man is simply violent and retaliates with his fists every time he must deal with anything resembling emotions.

Saying that John was in pain and so he can be excused is not true, IMHO. Sherlock was in enormous pain too and I didn´t see him turn violently on his friends as a result (in HLV, during the Baker Street scene, it would be so justified if he retaliated against Mary - yet he never did that). He even saved Mrs. Hudson´s cup from breaking while he was in the midst of a raging fit when she seemed scared of him.

Jokes instead of aplology are still not a reason to beat somebody the way we were shown in TLD.

Use drugs and attack other people - yes, the violence would be justified if the attack lasted. But John subdued Sherlock quite quickly and have taken scalpel from him. Thus the attack ended and with it the reason for the violence. 
 


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January 9, 2017 9:59 pm  #76


Re: John's violence

nakahara wrote:

Preceja wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Not if the "few punches" start evolving into a pattern.....

We know that John has a problem to cope with a big grief. But if the pattern is that he will punch Sherlock every time when somebody whom he loves dies , Sherlock is somehow involved and the makes something stupid like use drugs and attack other people or make stupid joke instead of apology, I can accept it . 

It was not only big grief that made him react that way. In TRF he headbutted the chief inspector for calling Sherlock a vigilante. At time it seemed like he is "defending Sherlock´s honour" but now it´s obvious that this was anything but: John himself calls Sherlock´s worse names than that and also, he does not hesitate to actually hurt Sherlock (something that chief inspector´s words could never manage).

No, I think the man is simply violent and retaliates with his fists every time he must deal with anything resembling emotions.

Saying that John was in pain and so he can be excused is not true, IMHO. Sherlock was in enormous pain too and I didn´t see him turn violently on his friends as a result (in HLV, during the Baker Street scene, it would be so justified if he retaliated against Mary - yet he never did that). He even saved Mrs. Hudson´s cup from breaking while he was in the midst of a raging fit when she seemed scared of him.

Jokes instead of aplology are still not a reason to beat somebody the way we were shown in TLD.

Use drugs and attack other people - yes, the violence would be justified if the attack lasted. But John subdued Sherlock quite quickly and have taken scalpel from him. Thus the attack ended and with it the reason for the violence. 
 

I agree totally.

Watson's violence is in no way excusable, and it's kind of invalidating to actual victims of abuse to handwave it away because we can't stand saying anything negative about the character, or simply don't want to acknowledge that our beloved character could have such an ugly side to his personality.

Another thing: domestic violence is rampant in the Gay community. So, the idea that male on male violence can't be described as abusive is a false one, and actually dangerous. Many men in abusive relationships don't report it, because people don't take it seriously.

It may be that John, just like Sherlock needs to do some work to become a "good man".
 

 

January 9, 2017 11:16 pm  #77


Re: John's violence

Absolutely agreed with the two above posts. I can't explain away the darkness of that violence and John's character. If they are setting up for a major charachter growth in TFP, John's monologue and the reminders of Sherlock's humanization across the last couple seasosn would appear to make such a shift obvious. 

I'm hoping that the soundtrack listings for TFP are some indication of this. 

1. The Final Problem - She Was Different 
2. The Final Problem - Doing A Good Thing 
3. The Final Problem - 3 Suspects
4. The Final Problem - Pick Up
5. The Final Problem - Brother Mine
6. The Final Problem - Bones
7. The Final Problem - The Hall
8. The Final Problem - I Had No One
9. The Final Problem - Open Your Eyes
10. The Final Problem - Always the Grown Up 
11. The Final Problem - Who You Really Are - mirror of TLD, also hints of previous episodes?

 

January 9, 2017 11:48 pm  #78


Re: John's violence

Interesting debate and comments and good points made all around.  Much of this has probably already been said, but I have been thinking about this thread all day today. 
As I see it, I still think that the scene makes sense for these two characters, in this situation and as dramatic license in a TV show.  This of course would never be acceptable in real life. 
As for me, I think John was letting loose a lot of frustration and anger and could not stop himself.  BUT, I also think that, had Sherlock said John's name or had said "stop" that John would have stopped.  I think Sherlock could have stopped him.  He chose to take the beating a) because I think on some level he felt he deserved it as he blamed himself for Mary's death and b) I still wonder how much of that scene and the one with Smith in the hospital were manipulation by Sherlock.  He is a master manipulator.  He must've known that John would stop him from stabbing Smith with the scalpel.  I don't think he knew or expected John would beat him that badly, but may have anticipated some punches being thrown and could have had the foresight to use that to land him in the hospital. 
Sherlock also does not seem to mind physical pain as much as emotional pain and stress.  Again, doesn't make what John did right, but may be a reason Sherlock didn't try to stop him.
I think this was mostly a plot device to show John sort of hitting rock bottom.  I think people can just get so out of control they don't know what they are doing.  He knew he went too far when he confessed to Lestrade that he hit Sherlock really hard.  I think him leaving his cane in the room to say goodbye may have been an apology of sorts.  Maybe John thought after the fight, that he shouldn't be around Sherlock anymore or that Sherlock would not want to see him and was going to get out of his life forever.  Maybe there was some apology between them off camera that was not shown. 
The point is, I think it was a turning point for John leading him to want to reconcile and be the man Mary thought he should be.  I am sure he understood it was wrong.  Both of these men are broken and both are learning from each other how to be better people. 
I do not see them romantically involved, but there is no question they love each other and complete each other in some way.
Other points have been made that this constitutes and abusive relationship or that it would have played differently if one party was female. I don't think this is a repeated pattern of abuse, I think it was a one time event and as I stated above, used as a plot device to break both men so they could reconcile.   Clearly, two men having a fist fight is much different than what was portrayed here and it would be definitely a different scene if it were between a man and a woman instead of two men.  For all that we want to be equal, there are major differences in behavior between the two sexes.  Would this have been acceptable between two women?  A woman beating a man in this way?  Would two women even fight this way and allow this to happen?  I don't know what the answers are, but I suspect all of these scenarios would have been far more unacceptable than two men exhibiting this behavior. 
Again, not condoning this type of behavior or saying it was the right choice to play it out this way, but I understand what they were going for in the scene and it did not bother me perhaps as much as it should have. 
It does bring up some very interesting points as to how we view and accept or do not accept violence on television.  Great topic even though it is a bit dark and controversial.

Last edited by NoShipSherlock (January 9, 2017 11:50 pm)


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January 10, 2017 6:59 am  #79


Re: John's violence

Yes, excellent topic discussion topic.
I had quite a good chat with my daughter on the subject:  she seemed to be very much in tune with my own view that violence should never really be overdone on TV, unless it is necessary to progress the story.
I talked to her about SIB where Sherlock beats up the CIA guy and how I reasoned it as being totally unacceptable in real life...is it ok for TV?
With John: his abuse of Sherlock had just got progressively worse. Does he have real issues or is it just a result of his army training and experience?


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January 10, 2017 7:30 am  #80


Re: John's violence

You know, I have a lot of relatives -- including my father-- who are career military and cops-- none of them beat their friends or spouses. Being in the military isn't an excuse. 

The other thing-- Sherlock and John were not having a fist fight. Sherlock was ill. John was beating and kicking him, and Sherlock didn't or couldn't defend himself. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (January 10, 2017 7:32 am)

 

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