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February 23, 2018 11:11 am  #241


Re: TLD Headscratchers

And quite unnecessary really, if all she was doing was a simple urine test.  He could have done that himself.  But I suppose amongst other things it helped keep Molly in our minds, ready for TFP.
 

 

February 25, 2018 3:11 pm  #242


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Interestingly - and hardly ever mentioned anywhere -, Miss Molly Hooper must be a surgeon (not another medical specialty), whereas Dr. John Watson is not.

I think one of the reasons for having Molly do the exam in the ambulance was to show off Sherlock's precognitive abilities some more... And of course, John wanted a second opinion on Sherlock's state (or lack) of health - to that aim Sherlock and Molly could have conspired to simply tell him what he needs to hear (seriously, why does John insist on Molly examining Sherlock? Why is he so sure she's over her crush on him? I'd want a really independent opinion from somebody who doesn't know us...)

 

February 25, 2018 4:13 pm  #243


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I think the plain fact is Molly will always love Sherlock.
But she has accepeted he will never be interested in her that way.
They remain good friends.


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February 25, 2018 4:14 pm  #244


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Yes, it's kind of odd that Molly's a surgeon as well as a pathologist. And has kept the "title" (Miss).  I wonder if they didn't intend her to be a doctor initially - maybe a lab technician?  There are also hints that John is dual trained as a surgeon too, but he has reverted to "Dr".   Anyway, you've got me wondering why a pathologist would be more suitable than a GP (who would be dealing with live drug users routinely) for examining Sherlock. 

 

February 25, 2018 4:16 pm  #245


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Both are liable to slap him, after all!
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February 25, 2018 5:04 pm  #246


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Liberty wrote:

...   Anyway, you've got me wondering why a pathologist would be more suitable than a GP (who would be dealing with live drug users routinely) for examining Sherlock. 

I don't think it's a question of suitability, the dialogue in the episode goes:

JOHN (more quietly): Listen, before I do anything, I need to know what state you’re in.
SHERLOCK: Well, you’re a doctor. Examine me. (He sits down on the chair again.)
JOHN: No, I need a second opinion.
SHERLOCK (exasperated): Oh, John, calm down. When have you ever managed two opinions?
You’d fall over.
JOHN: I need the one person who – unlike me – learned to see through your bullshit long ago.
SHERLOCK: Who’s that, then? I’m sure I would have noticed.
JOHN: The last person you’d think of.
(Sherlock looks up at him silently.)
JOHN: I want you to be examined by Molly Hooper.
(Sherlock looks down, biting his lip.)
JOHN: D’you hear me? I said Molly Hooper.
SHERLOCK (cringing a little): You’re really not gonna like this.

(As always, thanks a lot, Ariane DeVere (https://arianedevere.dreamwidth.org/63351.html), though I copied from my PDF-download)

When I saw Molly in the first episode, she came across to me like a lab technician, definitely not like a surgeon! But originally she wasn't supposed to be a long-term member of the show, from what I've read, so her job wouldn't have been all that important.

And the main "hint" that John is a surgeon, as far as I remember, is that a GP wouldn't need to be discharged from the Army for a tremor in his hand and a limp. But then in HLV he clearly works as a GP - without having had the time to qualify as one, if Wellingtongoose is to be believed. (Out of curiosity, I just searched for "surgeon" in the pdf containing the transcripts of all episodes - and the first time the word crops up is on page 399 when they operate on Sherlock. John Watson, ex-army surgeon, seems to be fanon, not canon...)

 

February 25, 2018 5:27 pm  #247


Re: TLD Headscratchers

My feeling--my headcanon--is that John initially trained to become a GP, got his license in the field, and then changed his mind and decided to become a surgeon instead.  According to wellingtongoose, it was easier for a doctor to change specialties back then than it would be now.  So he ended up joining the army's surgical training program, and was still in training when he was shot.  Because, you're right--he could have continued as an army GP if that is what he had been.

 

 

February 25, 2018 6:51 pm  #248


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Thanks for the background on the surgeon hints!  I must have got mixed up with the fan stuff - or maybe because the original Watson was a surgeon in the army, and a GP in London, I believe.  The thing is, in the clips we see of "the battlefield", I'm not sure John is either!.  I'm not sure a GP would be on the front line like that (why?), and I'm not even sure about a surgeon: I imagine the army having highly trained paramedics for emergency care.  But that's by the by.   John says he's discharged because of the shoulder wound, but it's also hinted that it was because of PTSD, I think (the therapist).  My own feeling is that they were just creating something similar to Watson in the original stories, and it doesn't really matter too much (although it's always fun to speculate!).

Thanks for the quote!  I suppose John didn't trust himself examining Sherlock.  Obviously, I am due for a rewatch! 

 

February 25, 2018 9:26 pm  #249


Re: TLD Headscratchers

A GP would not be on the battlefield, no.  But a surgeon in training would be sent on retrieval missions to battle scenes.  Wellingtongoose explained it in this meta, http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/30923990756/semantics3

As a trainee trauma surgeon--and his rank as captain indicates that he was--John would have been quite often sent to the battlefield to retrieve injured soldiers and medevac them to where they needed treatment (he'd be considered more expendable than consultant surgeons, who would not have to do that).  That would explain why he was shot in a battle.
 

Last edited by kgreen20 (February 25, 2018 9:29 pm)

 

February 26, 2018 7:43 am  #250


Re: TLD Headscratchers

That's a good explanation (and helps to explain why John is only a captain - he didn't finish training).  But I honestly think what we see is heavily influenced by the original Watson.  I don't see John choosing to be a GP initially, because he clearly has so little love for it.   Anyway, probably both John and Molly are overqualified to carry out a urine test! 

 

February 26, 2018 11:56 am  #251


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Ahh, but who would trust somebody else to not be charmed (or manipulated, or blackmailed) by Sherlock into lying for him? If you wanna do it right, you gotta do it yourself...

Thanks, kgreen20, for the link to Wellingtongoose's post - I had forgotten the details.

 

February 26, 2018 2:35 pm  #252


Re: TLD Headscratchers

You're welcome, kittyhawk.  Glad you found that article useful!

I hear what you're saying, Liberty, but John wouldn't have been allowed to practice as a locum GP unless he had trained to become a GP, to begin with.  Getting his GP license and then deciding to become a surgeon instead is the only way I can see to reconcile these discrepancies.

I wrote a story a while back, pretty much describing my own head canon of John's back history; it's posted on Fanfiction.net and Archive of Our Own.  Here's the AO3 link: http://archiveofourown.org/works/5658772.
 

Last edited by kgreen20 (February 26, 2018 2:38 pm)

 

February 26, 2018 6:41 pm  #253


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Yes, I know, but I just don't see that being John's chosen career (not that it isn't an interesting and stimulating path, but John seems to so passionately crave danger and stimulation - I just don't see him working so hard for that goal).  I think one of the theories a couple of years back was that he did GP training because he was already in the army and that's where they wanted him to work (I can't remember if that was also the theory that had him giving it up and enlisting as a soldier).  I'm not sure if I prefer that theory or not!  Of course, an alternative is that he trained as a GP because he couldn't get into his chosen field at the time.   Or that he was directionless when younger, and it was a mistake.  Maybe he had to care for somebody at the time, and GP hours suited better.    

I do think it's very open to various head canons.  I did have a preferred one, but I can't even remember what it was now!   I'm not even sure if we're meant to be trying to deduce it all from the clues we're given (although it's fun to try!).  I'm quite happy leaving it open and vague these days and just seeing it as a reference to canon.  But I understand that when writing fanfiction about it, you'd want something more concrete! 
 

 

March 1, 2018 11:40 am  #254


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Why do you think that John hates being a GP so much? I have a feeling that's also a lot more fanon than canon: Without checking the transcripts I only remember seein John as a GP in TBB - where he falls asleep after working the night on the books. That's not what I'd expect from a university-hospital trained doctor (if ER can be believed), but it speaks more of exhaustion than hate.

And then there's the scene in TEH, where he shouts at the patient whom he suspects of being Sherlock in disguise and pulls on his beard. Not acceptable behaviour, for sure, but the guy does behave very strangely (trying to sell him porn, if I remember correctly), and John is upset by Sherlock's return (and IMHO still suffering from PTSD). Again, I don't see how that indicates a hatred for his job in general. Don't we all have bad moments in our jobs without actually hating them?

 

March 1, 2018 12:33 pm  #255


Re: TLD Headscratchers

It's not so much that he hates it, more that I don't see it being his choice as a career (more than other paths he could have taken as a doctor).  He jumps at the chance to do something dangerous/exciting/etc.  General practice might be interesting, but I think it would be obvious to him that it's not the most thrill-seeking option! 

But on top of that is what we see of him at work.  The cases they chose for him are mostly for humour (undescended testicle, thrush, piles), but I think they also make the job look mundane and boring - the opposite of his work with Sherlock.  I think this is how he's experiencing the job.  He jumps at the chance to do something more exciting, like invade a drug den with an offensive weapon! 

As I said, I do feel the choice of GP might be more to fit with canon, than to show John's character.  I suppose it could also be because it's seen as more flexible and maybe easier to drop at short notice?  And also, maybe, because it IS shown as mundane, it's easier for it to take a back seat.   If John was something more glamorous like a heart surgeon it might be felt that he would focus on that more, and not be so free to go on adventures? 
 

 

March 1, 2018 9:07 pm  #256


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Yeah, and you can see his reactions to his clients in TEH. He almost has to force himself to be smiling and polite.


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March 2, 2018 12:06 pm  #257


Re: TLD Headscratchers

But I don't think that the John we see interacting with his patients in TEH is in his normal frame of mind - he just got the shock of Sherlock's revival. At least I hope that's the reason...

Liberty wrote:

... I suppose it could also be because it's seen as more flexible and maybe easier to drop at short notice?  And also, maybe, because it IS shown as mundane, it's easier for it to take a back seat.   If John was something more glamorous like a heart surgeon it might be felt that he would focus on that more, and not be so free to go on adventures? 
 

I think that's an important point - I don't think you can become a half-way decent surgeon without a lot of dedication and full concentration on the job while working. A GP is less likely to kill people if he has a bad day (though I belive it was Wellingtongoose who said that falling asleep while supposed to be working is a very serious offence even for GPs). Also, from what I've seen of surgeons (real ones, not only on ER - which seems to portray them quite accurately) very many of them do have an ego that would clash terribly with Sherlock's...
 

 

March 9, 2018 10:33 am  #258


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Kittyhawk wrote:

Interestingly - and hardly ever mentioned anywhere -, Miss Molly Hooper must be a surgeon (not another medical specialty), whereas Dr. John Watson is not.

What???
Why is Molly a surgeon? Where are the hints for that? I'm quite sure she isn't. I mean she quite clearly seems to be a pathologist.


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March 9, 2018 11:17 am  #259


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I think Kittyhawk deduced this because for historical reasons in the UK surgeons are usually no doctors whereas all (or most) other physicians have a doctor's degree. However, I am not sure if one can conclude that Molly must be a surgeon just because she is not called Dr Hooper. 

 


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March 9, 2018 3:07 pm  #260


Re: TLD Headscratchers

SusiGo wrote:

I think Kittyhawk deduced this because for historical reasons in the UK surgeons are usually no doctors whereas all (or most) other physicians have a doctor's degree. However, I am not sure if one can conclude that Molly must be a surgeon just because she is not called Dr Hooper. 

 

Ok, thanks, I agree. But as you said, that doesn't mean that she is a surgeon and not a pathologist. And Kittyhawk wrote that she must be a surgeon and not another medical specialty. I found that very irritating.

I want to make clear that this doctor vs surgeon is VERY outdated. I can't believe that anyone would make conclusions from that today. This comes from medival times! In medival times, you could say that a barber did a surgeons job, and then there were the "real doctors" who would nowadays be considered as a specialist in the broad field of internal medicine.

I would say since approx. 100 years ago both "professions" are first and foremost physicians. Today it doesn't make sense whatsoever to call people surgeon OR doctor. What would you call a cardiologist, or even a psychiatrist, without a doctor's degree for example? Surely not a surgeon.

Again, to make it clear: Anyone who finishes medical school is a physician. If you additionally get a doctoral degree in the medical field, you can call yourself "doctor", it doesn't matter if you are a radiologist, GP, surgeon, paediatrician, psychiatrist, ophtalmologist,...

If we agree that Molly is a physician, I do wonder however if she is a pathologist or a forensic pathologist. And to begin with, if there is a difference at all between those specialties in the UK. I can only speak for Germany, but there is a huge difference between a pathologst and a forensic pathologist=autopist=coronist. They require completely different specialisation and they don't do the same work afterwards.
I'm not sure which one Molly is, maybe because there is no difference in the UK? In TBB she has access to (and even said she examines) the dead van Coon and others who clearly died an unnatural death/were victim of a crime. In Germany ONLY a forensic pathologst would do the autopsy. They also are quite skilled in detecting drugs and toxins etc. So yeah, in general it would make sense that Molly has a certain expertise when it comes to Sherlock's drug use, but not in an moving ambulance cart without a proper laboratory. ;)

Last edited by Rache (March 9, 2018 3:17 pm)


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