BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » John's anger towards Sherlock

besleybean · January 6, 2017 6:57 pm

Again, I know, I know WE can all see that...give grieving John time.

Liberty · January 6, 2017 7:06 pm

I think because John, despite the banter, sometimes sees Sherlock in inflated terms - "I'm so much cleverer through your eyes". His expectations were impossibly high.

nakahara · January 6, 2017 8:11 pm

Expectations are one thing, dropping such a huge responsibility on another person is another.
Of course, Sherlock is willing to keep his vow on his own - still, I´d wish John would be a bit humbler about the whole thing.

besleybean · January 6, 2017 8:12 pm

Me, too.

ancientsgate · January 6, 2017 8:43 pm

tonnaree wrote:
.....Everyone keeps saying these things, but anger and grief are not rational.

I think they're just very normal human emotions. But maybe what you meant to say is that we humans' reactions to anger and grief, what we choose to do and say, often seems quite irrational.

SolarSystem · January 6, 2017 8:44 pm

nakahara wrote:
Liberty wrote:
... but I suppose after he'd gone as far as shooting Magnussen, John just had utter faith that he could protect her.
Which brings me to this issue: didn´t Sherlock already kept his promise when he removed Magnussen from Mary´s path? He almost had to pay with his life for that one... how come John takes that for granted and demands MORE?

Well, Sherlock promised to be there for them always. He actually uses the word "always" twice in his vow. So one could argue that his vow will last forever, no matter how often he has already proteced them from danger.

besleybean · January 6, 2017 8:45 pm

Well he was there for Mary...

Schmiezi · January 6, 2017 8:48 pm

besleybean wrote:
Well he was there for Mary...

He called Mary to the aquarium where she got killed by the woman Sherlock made angry with showing off. I can understand John's anger.

ancientsgate · January 6, 2017 8:50 pm

Vhanja wrote:
............But once he gets home, he should've been able to take a breath and think things through a bit more.

Yeah, but you can't apply "should haves" to someone else's psychological/emotional processes. I know from my own experience that there is no right and wrong way to grieve. It just is what it is, and it takes a certain amount of time and space and emotional work to get from Point A to Point B.

Most of us are familiar with the classic "5 stages of grief"-- denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. It's possible to skip over any of those stages, and it's also possible to regress to an earlier stage, one you think you've worked through and are done with, but you aren't.

As for John, he passed through the first rush of denial rather quickly, while crouched down in front of the dying Mary and telling her it would be okay, etc. But almost immediately, he moved to red hot, spitting venom anger. Perhaps later, while roving the cemetery and spending time alone, he is involved in his bargaining or even depression phase. Hopefully, for our Sherlock and for the sake of his relationship with John, John will eventually emerge into acceptance. Most people will, given enough time and space.

Last edited by ancientsgate (January 6, 2017 8:51 pm)

besleybean · January 6, 2017 8:51 pm

I understand the anger, but I hope John soon gets over it.

Last edited by besleybean (January 6, 2017 8:51 pm)

ancientsgate · January 6, 2017 8:59 pm

Vhanja wrote:
........I do agree that I think it's just a general anger over the pain of it all - and Sherlock is the easiest target. It's easier to deal with pain if you have a scape goat.

Ah. The whipping boy. It might seem easier to play the blame game, but that path leads to nowhere good, only more sadness and blind, impotent rage. Life is unfair, and we hurt no one else but ourselves when we stay bogged down in unforgiveness and oh-so-justified hurt. But that's a process most people have to go through, a conclusion they have to arrive at, only after some time and emotional work. I think we can forgive John for lashing out at Sherlock and for prowling around like a wounded animal for a while. Even Sherlock, while appearing puzzled by what John said and did, since Sherlock certainly invited Norbury to shoot HIM, not anyone else in the room, seems to at least to know that John has to do what John has to do for a while.

Sorry for the armchair psychology. It's interesting for me to think about these things, but if I'm boring anybody, please feel free to ignore me!

ancientsgate · January 6, 2017 9:04 pm

nakahara wrote:
Sherlock promised to protect the family of normal middle-class Londoners the day he made a vow. He was not aware the issue would be complicated by Mary being the super-spy and an assassin for hire with plenty of people who want her dead... a bit hard to keep your vow under such circumstances.

But when they found Mary in wherever that middle eastern place was that she'd run to, Sherlock again vowed to keep them all safe, if they would just come back to London, to his turf, with him. So a kind of double vow.

Ancientgate has a point in one of her above posts - during Sherlock´s speech which went on for some time, any of the assembled policemen could silently pull their gun out and shoot Norbury first. Mary with her training could easily overpower her, considering Norbury was frail and didn´t had the best of reflexes. They did nothing of the sort - and now Sherlock is the only responsible party?

Mary did take a few steps towards Norbury while Sherlock was running his mouth, but Norbury then pointed the gun at Mary and warned her off. Mary couldn't overpower the old woman without taking 7 or 8 steps towards her to reach the gun, and that would have meant certain death. The mom of a new baby, I don't think Mary had any wish to die then or anytime soon. I prefer to think SHE (Mary) wanted to keep them all safe, too. I find Mary's character very confusing and still haven't figured out who in hell she is, what she's doing married to John and having a baby, what her role is with the casework. She, S and J are an odd threesome, to say the least.

besleybean · January 6, 2017 9:06 pm

Not anymore, they're not!

ancientsgate · January 6, 2017 9:07 pm

besleybean wrote:
I suppose John doesn't care about any of the others...

You mean anyone besides Mary? Oh, I think he also cares very deeply about Sherlock, Lestrade, Molly at least. We could write a whole thesis about John's psychological make up, couldn't we. Remember the early days, the limp he had, even though he had no physical injury to cause it? Fascinating character. The orange balloon face he pinned to his chair that Sherlock didn't notice for like 4 hours? Wow.

besleybean · January 6, 2017 9:09 pm

No sorry, I meant upon Mary's death, in that room he only cared about Sherlock.

ancientsgate · January 6, 2017 9:18 pm

Liberty wrote:
No, I don't honestly think it's because Sherlock is an easy target. I think it's completely heartfelt, and specifically directed at Sherlock. There's probably some anger with himself for believing it (Mary was going to die at some point anyway, and there was only so much Sherlock could do to stop that happening), but I suppose after he'd gone as far as shooting Magnussen, John just had utter faith that he could protect her.

I agree, especially about the utter faith, which John probably questioned silently to himself the whole time he was doing the trusting. After all, Sherlock is made of flesh and bone like anyone else. He is not a super hero, and no one would know that better than John, that Sherlock, while exceedingly cagey-wily, is as vulnerable as anyone else to being mortal.

ancientsgate · January 6, 2017 9:20 pm

nakahara wrote:
......Which brings me to this issue: didn´t Sherlock already kept his promise when he removed Magnussen from Mary´s path? He almost had to pay with his life for that one... how come John takes that for granted and demands MORE?

Because Mark Gatiss wrote him that way. I can think of no other possible reason.

Vhanja · January 6, 2017 9:28 pm

You have some very good points, ancientsgate.

The problem is that even though you are absolutely right in what you write about grief and everybody taking their time to come to terms with it, I don't think most viewers will give John the same courtesy. What they see (and what I saw) was gross injustice towards Sherlock.

ancientsgate · January 6, 2017 9:30 pm

Vhanja wrote:
You have some very good points, ancientsgate.

The problem is that even though you are absolutely right in what you write about grief and everybody taking their time to come to terms with it, I don't think most viewers will give John the same courtesy. What they see (and what I saw) was gross injustice towards Sherlock.

Yes, John was written that way, so we would sympathize with Sherlock, all the while also sympathizing with John in his grief. Angst! I love it!

And we don't have months to work this thing out. We have two more 90-minute episodes.

Liberty · January 6, 2017 9:45 pm

Of course it's unjust. I'm thinking not just of everything Sherlock did to protect Mary, but how he did his best to keep them together, while in terrible pain, with a struggling heart. And the most they did for him was coming to his parents' house for Christmas. Not that he expected anything in return, and of course, they would have helped if he needed it, as evidenced by Mary giving up her life for him in the end. But I think it's raw emotion talking. I can actually understand and forgive this of John much more easily than I can him repeatedly attacking Sherlock in TEH.

Last edited by Liberty (January 6, 2017 9:51 pm)