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January 4, 2017 12:22 am  #341


Re: First impressons and discussions

Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum, too! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

I watched the episode twice now – there are probably still some details I missed, but in general I like TST, even though it‘s really not one of my favourites.
Somehow it felt a bit „boring“ to me, the only big mystery being about Mary and this strange AGRA-story (why would anyone take this oh-so-important flash drive with him on such a dangerous mission, anyway?! Did I miss something? ^^).

The first 30 minutes felt very fast-paced, as if they wanted to bring all kinds of things in without really having time for it.

The Mary-heavy episode and her death in the end didn‘t come as a big suprise to me, and I think it was necessary. She was taking too much room lately, in my opinion.
The death scene itself was so implausible that I actually started to laugh when the bullet hit Mary. But her last words, Johns reaction and Sherlock just standing there in total shock was heartbreaking, despite all the clichés in this scene.

I really loved the water theme, the aquarium location in the end, the way Sherlock as a character developed, all the Mycroft scenes and Toby, the dog. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png
And they managed to not overdo the uncle-Sherlock-thing, luckily!

Oh, and I‘m really disappointed that neither John nor Mary in any form showed any reaction to Sherlock shooting Magnussen to protect them. It bothers me how they seem to take his protection for granted... http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/confused.png


On the whole, a decent episode for me, but I hope for something that is feeling more consistent and "fresh" for ep 2!

 

January 4, 2017 6:42 am  #342


Re: First impressons and discussions

I've only watched it once and will definitely watch it again.  Some initial impressions:
* I liked the first half much better than the second half.
* I really liked Mycroft and Sherlock arguing about his phone.
* The pacing was very fast; too fast, in my opinion, because many scenes seemed like they were too short and disjointed.
* I enjoyed Sherlock lecturing the baby about the rattle.
* Where was John???
* Hard to believe John would initiate an extra-marital affair, since he expressed such deep love for Mary in HLV.
* I think that woman on the bus has to have a more significant role in the show -- there's just got to be more to things than a simple affair.
* Felt the scenes showing Mary and her disguises as she flees went on way too long.
* Was confused by the beginning in the aquarium -- that location seemed rather out of character for the show, to me anyway.
* Sherlock's fight in the kitchen and the pool went on way too long for me.
* What's with Mycroft's office?  In prior episodes, he had a huge and airy office that looked like it was in some government building -- here, it looks like he's in some basement dungeon.
* I think the text overlay technique was overdone in this episode; a more sparing use of it would have made it more effective.
* Next time, I'll watch it with subtitles because, even though English is my first language, I still missed a lot of the dialog.
* Mary sacrificing herself the way she did was admirable, even though I don't like the character.
* I wasn't impressed by Martin's acting when John grieved Mary's death at the aquarium -- it seemed over the top to me and not completely real.
* Molly's look at Sherlock when she had to tell him what John said was heartbreaking -- that was excellent acting!
* I didn't really care for this episode -- it didn't seem like previous episodes -- but I couldn't really put my finger on why...
* ...Until I read this article, which now I realize is exactly what I felt about what was wrong with the episode: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jan/03/sherlock-slowly-perversely-morphing-into-james-bond-benedict-cumberbatch

Maybe I'll have a different impression after watching it again.


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January 4, 2017 7:24 am  #343


Re: First impressons and discussions

Thanks for linking that article, Sherli. There are quite some things in it which I can totally agree with. And don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of James Bond, especially Daniel Craig's James Bond, but it's something I don't need to see in "Sherlock". I already mentioned it somewhere else: One of the scenes which really made me go "Oh boy, please don't...!!' in TST was when we saw Mary and her team in action. It felt so mundane (how many times have we seen scenes like this one before...?). And yes, it all started with making Mary an ex-agent-action-babe.


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January 4, 2017 8:34 am  #344


Re: First impressons and discussions

I read somewhere that bus stop girl was in reality Smith's daughter ! It would explain why she was so interested in John : if Smith want to get to Sherlock, he goes through John to hurt him ! Pressure point !


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January 4, 2017 8:44 am  #345


Re: First impressons and discussions

Oh, my god...  I'm late to the party and so many thread pages to catch up on, but was just so excited to jump in and quickly put down thoughts before forgot them!  Watched it live the first time, then another repeat later, then a day just for everything to sink in.  From quickly glimpsing, know you guys have hit on a lot of the amazing points, but... gahh...  everything they put in that ep, right??

Giggling like crazy at Sherlock at the beginning, and delighting in Ben's acting (through the entire ep, really!  Especially all the expressions and lines he rattles off!), but also... what the heck?  I saw a little of you guys commenting about him being high and, I really have to wonder if he is!    (which just kind of throws TAB, and even this episode, into a still-skewed light of what's real, especially with all the distorted/water effects... ack.)
Sherlock (and the acting) just all-around was amazing.  Although his rude texting got a bit much.
So cool watching them use the tweaked canon story for The Six Thatchers plot, and tie that all into the past of Mary's we knew would come up. (also tied in to Mycroft and possible Moriarty?!). And AGRA!!
Problem.  Why the heck did they carry their usb's around with them?!
What happened, then, to those belonging to Gabriel and Alex? (And like someone else pointed out, why did Sherlock say/know "'She' burned it"?)

Love all the show in-jokes they dropped just for us again - 'It's never twins', 'not a girl's name', Redbeard and pirates (gah, more childhood flashbacks you know are going to come up and haunt him...), Sherlock not noticing people, elephants (you guys see the one on Mycroft's fridge?), John's blog.  Again.  Several times, despite knowing they'll not update the 'real' one (are they just teasing us, now?).  And Sherrinford!!

So called it once the scene was unfolding that Mary was going to save Sherlock, and that it was him in the therapist's chair (awww!).  But... why?  Because Sherlock had already nearly died because of her, and it was her past that she should be the one facing? (and with the missing usb's, possibly their info is now out there already anyway, and as Mycroft said, agents like that inevitably have death catch up to them?  Which really makes the Samorra story foreboding, even if it also applies to Sherlock's past consequences)  And... what recurring dream?!  And what was that letter (and continued anger!) from John?!

Only thing that upset me (and yeah, I need to catch up on the thread for this), was John's lying/flirting.  He's human, and a tired new dad with crazy life, flattered by a woman's attraction.  But he's also loyal and honest and can't keep a secret well and... *makes 'wth' gestures*  Seriously... what?!?  The best thing that could be sneakily possible is that she's a hidden helper/spy (either for him or against him).  (she had been sitting next to a bus stop poster of Culverton after all)

In fact, there were so many little things that seemed off or strangely placed or confusing... I'm loathe to believe it's Mind Palace again, but various comments I'm seeing online about an 'unreliable narrator' trope are convincing (if Sherlock is relating all this through his view to Ella!).  Weird accents in surroundings (the brighter skull painting, water), Mary knowing 'dragon-slayer' line, John's ease of hanging around whenever he likes/hardly working/flirting, the baby not around when inconvenient, Sherlock telling John where to go, but Mary (without evidently needing to ask), knows to come to the aquarium for 'the last act' (so how much of that was planned??) not to mention that super-dramatic death with speech that finishes ticking off all the boxes we got for her story, instead of Dr. Watson kicking into gear, like he did with Sherlock?  What is this?

Holy cow, and not to forget the end-credits video-blog Mary saying 'Go to hell, Sherlock'
(omg.....  omg, it hit me... not her being angry (although she might be, knowing she wasn't saved), or possible 'go to your emotional hell, whatever it takes to save him', but...  Hell.  It's... literally... a. place.) !     

Oi, vey..!  Sorry, know I'm probably repeating a lot!  Just still trying to catch up on all the threads.


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January 4, 2017 9:01 am  #346


Re: First impressons and discussions

On the 'hell' issue, I definitely think it will be an emotional and physical hell, for what Sherlock will have to face to save John.
Didn't my other post show up, or was it a different thread?
Anyhow, I thought it was the other woman(with Sherlock), that is supposed to be Culverton's daughter?


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January 4, 2017 9:49 am  #347


Re: First impressons and discussions

Russell, I wondered what happened to the other USB sticks as well - perhaps destroyed on the bodies.  I think Mary said they carried them around so that they couldn't betray each other (because they all had information on the others), and Mary had obviously kept carrying hers around with her for years, even in HLV.   I know it doesn't quite make sense. 

I thought John's flirting was believable.   Remember his comment in TSOT about married men?  And he was fairly quick to want to own up to it and put a stop to it.   But we'll see - I'm sure there will be repercussions later. 

I don't think Sherlock would have told the whole story to Ella.  Did he even know about the bus stop lady?  Perhaps he deduced that?  I think it's more of a flashback thing. 

Sherlock saying "she" burned it - well, he wouldn't necessarily know.  John might have told him what happened to the USB, but Sherlock wouldn't know which of them put it in the fire.   But I think it was necessary to the plot for him to say "she" so that Ajay could pick up on it. 

 

 

January 4, 2017 10:35 am  #348


Re: First impressons and discussions

Sherli Bakerst wrote:

I've only watched it once and will definitely watch it again.  Some initial impressions:
* I liked the first half much better than the second half.
* I really liked Mycroft and Sherlock arguing about his phone.
* The pacing was very fast; too fast, in my opinion, because many scenes seemed like they were too short and disjointed.
* I enjoyed Sherlock lecturing the baby about the rattle.
* Where was John???
* Hard to believe John would initiate an extra-marital affair, since he expressed such deep love for Mary in HLV.
* I think that woman on the bus has to have a more significant role in the show -- there's just got to be more to things than a simple affair.
* Felt the scenes showing Mary and her disguises as she flees went on way too long.
* Was confused by the beginning in the aquarium -- that location seemed rather out of character for the show, to me anyway.
* Sherlock's fight in the kitchen and the pool went on way too long for me.
* What's with Mycroft's office?  In prior episodes, he had a huge and airy office that looked like it was in some government building -- here, it looks like he's in some basement dungeon.
* I think the text overlay technique was overdone in this episode; a more sparing use of it would have made it more effective.
* Next time, I'll watch it with subtitles because, even though English is my first language, I still missed a lot of the dialog.
* Mary sacrificing herself the way she did was admirable, even though I don't like the character.
* I wasn't impressed by Martin's acting when John grieved Mary's death at the aquarium -- it seemed over the top to me and not completely real.
* Molly's look at Sherlock when she had to tell him what John said was heartbreaking -- that was excellent acting!
* I didn't really care for this episode -- it didn't seem like previous episodes -- but I couldn't really put my finger on why...
* ...Until I read this article, which now I realize is exactly what I felt about what was wrong with the episode: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jan/03/sherlock-slowly-perversely-morphing-into-james-bond-benedict-cumberbatch

Maybe I'll have a different impression after watching it again.

 
I agree with almost all points you mention. I had a hard time, too, with this episode. English isn't my first language, but in previous episodes I was perfectly able to understand. Not so in TST. The pace was crazy at times. Some  action scenes went on far too long.And the text overlay was totally overdone.

 

January 4, 2017 3:54 pm  #349


Re: First impressons and discussions

Just for the record: The episode starts growing on me. Not to a scale like other favourites, but I'm getting to terms with it. Interesting that others made the same experience - and some didn't.

I think I needed time to process things, and I missed lots of details the first time... It also helped to rewatch the episodes before.

And actually, not very surprising though - the forum helped, too. Without these discussions here, I would miss so many things, and stay puzzled about others forever!
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Last edited by Whisky (January 4, 2017 3:56 pm)


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January 4, 2017 4:32 pm  #350


Re: First impressons and discussions

I didn't like this episode even after watching again. 
I didn't like how Sherlock acted when they were reviewing the video they had changed to save him.  Plus all his manic acting and the continuous texting through the entire episode.
Sherlock and John's characters were completely different.
Didn't like Mary being in every case they were on, especially that they had to have her on the phone and in video at the crime scene with the boy.
Too convenient that the kid who died happened to have a Thatcher bust broken and why would Sherlock care??
Dog - what a wasted bit of time.
John's flirting.  I think the woman has insinuated herself into his life for some reason but did they have to go with him cheating on Mary?  I think it was more than texting.
All the 'watery' stuff they did.
If Sherlock was hiding in the last house with the statute with police waiting, why did the fight go on so long?  Didn't the police see the guy enter?  More wasted time.
I think Benedict and Martin are bored with these roles.  IMHO
 

 

January 4, 2017 5:14 pm  #351


Re: First impressons and discussions

Wow, I like it even more, having just watched it a second time.
Sherlock loves a puzzle...
Yes, I am now less convinced that John did actually cheat, but I'm not sure.
The water and sharks are a theme...
Oh I don't think the boys are bored at all, they are just too busy doing other stuff.


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January 4, 2017 8:36 pm  #352


Re: First impressons and discussions

Random thought whilst at my boring job at the moment- what if Sherrinford isn't a person's name but a place. Maybe it's that hospital they've been showing snippets of in the previews. Maybe somebody is there.....due to something Sherlock did? Does that grand house on fire also in the previews play into that? Or I may need a more interesting line of work to keep my mind occupied!  LOL

 

January 4, 2017 8:38 pm  #353


Re: First impressons and discussions

oldechick wrote:

Random thought whilst at my boring job at the moment- what if Sherrinford isn't a person's name but a place. Maybe it's that hospital they've been showing snippets of in the previews. Maybe somebody is there.....due to something Sherlock did? Does that grand house on fire also in the previews play into that? Or I may need a more interesting line of work to keep my mind occupied! LOL

In Czech dubbing they actually translated Sherrinford as a place name.... hmmm....


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January 4, 2017 8:44 pm  #354


Re: First impressons and discussions

Ohhhh, maybe I'm not completely nuts............!

 

January 4, 2017 11:32 pm  #355


Re: First impressons and discussions


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 5, 2017 12:56 am  #356


Re: First impressons and discussions

 
You know whats scary? They say Porlock is Moriarty's assistant! So one of the four is not to be trusted?..


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January 5, 2017 6:42 am  #357


Re: First impressons and discussions

Ooh.


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January 5, 2017 8:53 am  #358


Re: First impressons and discussions


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January 5, 2017 9:24 am  #359


Re: First impressons and discussions

Ha! Took me a while to get that one, Vhanja!

Porlock ... hmm.  Lady Smallwood was Love, wasn't she?  Did we find out who the others were?  Very interesting - it could be that Norbury was working for Moriarty, as part of the game - although that would be a very long-term setup, going back years ago.  I'm not sure how Moriarty could orchestrate John and Mary getting together, even if he had a way of putting her in his path. 

But it looks like Norbury didn't have a codename in that room, so Porlock has to be one of the others, and not Lady Smallwood.  Yes, Antarctica seems to be Mycroft, but that might be misleading us!   And the other guy isn't terribly exciting so I don't want it to be him, so that leaves Mycroft or Sherlock as the "agent of Moriarty" (or the other guy, but that would be too boring).

Last edited by Liberty (January 5, 2017 9:25 am)

 

January 5, 2017 10:09 am  #360


Re: First impressons and discussions

14. There may be a long list of things Sherlock Holmes doesn’t know about (former prime ministers?), but William Shakespeare isn’t on it (Conan Doyle’s “the game is afoot” catchphrase comes from Henry V, incidentally). In The Six Thatchers, Sherlock quotes “by the pricking of my thumbs” from Macbeth. Unless of course, he’s quoting from that other classic British detective writer, Agatha Christie…

I just wanted to add that I think he knows perfectly well who Margaret Thatcher is (as we see when he guesses the password in HoB), but needs time to think so is asking questions.  Female?  Prime Minister?   And the next line after "by the pricking of my thumbs" is "something wicked this way comes" (something's coming ..).   I think he believes he's found the start of the "game" that Moriarty has set up.
 

Last edited by Liberty (January 5, 2017 10:09 am)

 

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