BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



August 22, 2016 7:38 am  #1


The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

As proposed in the Mary thread I am starting this thread in order to collect ideas about a theory that came up shortly after TAB aired. The fact that we get a whole episode that takes place in Sherlock's head, some people looked at HLV again, especially the second half, and had some thoughts about how bizarre and implausible much of this episode seems to be. 

Warning: there is not ONE theory saying that Sherlock's MP/dream starts at a certain point in HLV, there are several theories. But what they have in common is this:

In TSoT we got the laptop scene and I remember very well how here - in this forum - we kept racking our brains about why Sherlock keeps a dozen laptops in his room. There is even a thread for this, if I remember correctly. And then, weeks or months later, a clever person realised that this scene is not real. The laptops are symbols for the opened tabs in his computer and, what is more, John is not really there in the scene which is evidenced by the fact that he is magically changes his outfit between leaving Mrs Hudson's kitchen and entering the 221B living room.

This means that there is precedence of scenes that are not announced as taking place in Sherlock's mind. Whereas in ASiB we have a bed in a meadow signalling Not Real, here we are confronted with a sudden jump into Sherlock's mind that is never announced.

Which leads us the to question: There has been talk about the creators doing something that has never been done before and making TV history. Could it be this as well? Here are some links. You will find more on tumblr if searching for "emp", "emp/edt" or "reality vs fantasy". 

Where it all started:
http://gosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/137622767856/emp-theory-or-the-extended-mind-palace-theory

Some other metas by me:
http://gosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/139053535531/somethings-off-or-the-pasta-conundrum
http://gosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/143165439481/hlv-and-tab-the-hospital-clue
http://stillgosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/148684672293/hlv-the-restaurant-scene-revisited

and by others:
http://tjlcisthenewsexy.tumblr.com/post/146800639982/johns-choice
http://xistentialangst.tumblr.com/post/148271216077/emp-just-might-be
http://keyscodesandmotifs.tumblr.com/post/148989181490/is-sherlock-running-scenarios-empedt-in-hlv-and

There are more but for the beginning this should be enough. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


A last note: this is not the prevalent opinion out there but one of many. But I find it interesting, especially since we have progressively moved from observing Sherlock from the outside to getting into his mind. 

P.S. I think it will not make sense to discuss this subject without having read at least part of the linked posts. So if you do not have the time, please wait until you join the discussion. Thank you. 

Last edited by SusiGo (August 22, 2016 7:40 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

August 22, 2016 8:18 am  #2


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

Great, Susi. I am sure I have read most of the metas before but will skim through them again before making a proper post. :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 22, 2016 9:38 am  #3


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

What impresses me about it that it could be Ockham's Razor again. It is the answer to most if not all of the topic we discussed here.

I wonder for how long they could remain inside the Mind Palace without making the audience feel cheated. (I personally wonder about it because I am planning to write a fic based on the emp. So how long can I pretend that we see reality while we are actually inside Sherlock's mind?)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 22, 2016 1:15 pm  #4


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

I also find this theory fascinating.  My feelings about it are complicated though.  I think it would have to handled very delicately for the viewers to not feel cheated.  The "it's not real" thing has been used over and over now so they would have to find some sort of new take on it.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German   http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.gif
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/736x/aa/2b/35/aa2b352725f4c944599a3ea17cbfe44e.jpg    https://31.media.tumblr.com/bb0f8896a79d19602eeaea0254ff5ccd/tumblr_n5ztxjGDB61stgn3no1_500.jpg
 
 

August 22, 2016 6:06 pm  #5


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

SusiGo wrote:

As proposed in the Mary thread I am starting this thread in order to collect ideas about a theory that came up shortly after TAB aired. The fact that we get a whole episode that takes place in Sherlock's head, some people looked at HLV again, especially the second half, and had some thoughts about how bizarre and implausible much of this episode seems to be. 

Warning: there is not ONE theory saying that Sherlock's MP/dream starts at a certain point in HLV, there are several theories. But what they have in common is this:

In TSoT we got the laptop scene and I remember very well how here - in this forum - we kept racking our brains about why Sherlock keeps a dozen laptops in his room. There is even a thread for this, if I remember correctly. And then, weeks or months later, a clever person realised that this scene is not real. The laptops are symbols for the opened tabs in his computer and, what is more, John is not really there in the scene which is evidenced by the fact that he is magically changes his outfit between leaving Mrs Hudson's kitchen and entering the 221B living room.

This means that there is precedence of scenes that are not announced as taking place in Sherlock's mind. Whereas in ASiB we have a bed in a meadow signalling Not Real, here we are confronted with a sudden jump into Sherlock's mind that is never announced.

Which leads us the to question: There has been talk about the creators doing something that has never been done before and making TV history. Could it be this as well? Here are some links. You will find more on tumblr if searching for "emp", "emp/edt" or "reality vs fantasy". 

Where it all started:
http://gosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/137622767856/emp-theory-or-the-extended-mind-palace-theory

Some other metas by me:
http://gosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/139053535531/somethings-off-or-the-pasta-conundrum
http://gosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/143165439481/hlv-and-tab-the-hospital-clue
http://stillgosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/148684672293/hlv-the-restaurant-scene-revisited

and by others:
http://tjlcisthenewsexy.tumblr.com/post/146800639982/johns-choice
http://xistentialangst.tumblr.com/post/148271216077/emp-just-might-be
http://keyscodesandmotifs.tumblr.com/post/148989181490/is-sherlock-running-scenarios-empedt-in-hlv-and

There are more but for the beginning this should be enough. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


A last note: this is not the prevalent opinion out there but one of many. But I find it interesting, especially since we have progressively moved from observing Sherlock from the outside to getting into his mind. 

P.S. I think it will not make sense to discuss this subject without having read at least part of the linked posts. So if you do not have the time, please wait until you join the discussion. Thank you. 

Wow! Off to read!

 

August 23, 2016 5:50 am  #6


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

tonnaree wrote:

I also find this theory fascinating.  My feelings about it are complicated though.  I think it would have to handled very delicately for the viewers to not feel cheated.  The "it's not real" thing has been used over and over now so they would have to find some sort of new take on it.

I think having part of S4E1 still happening inside the mp would work if they leave enough clues, like they did in TAB. If the viewer suspects something to be wrong early enough, they won't feel cheated.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 23, 2016 6:12 am  #7


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

Sorry, I know I'm supposed to read an article first...but you know me,  I couldn't resist!
I thought we'd all been dead smart and together had identified every scene that was still MP, in TAB?

EDIT: okay, managed to look at them at least!

Last edited by besleybean (August 23, 2016 6:39 am)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 23, 2016 7:02 am  #8


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

I've just read the first one, but I'll add Mycroft's uncharacteristic sentimentality to the list - it's believable, but not what we've seen so far, and there is the Mycroft theme running through TAB.

I think there are points for and against, and I sway to against, partly because I think it gets ridiculous if they keep saying that more and more is MP.   TAB is fine, and that was flagged up very clearly as mind palace or something like that with the anachronisms and so on - we could see that we were meant to realise it wasn't what it seemed.   HLV isn't quite the same in that way. 

Of course, given the drugs, maybe there's an argument for extended the mind palace to the beginning of HLV, with Sherlock in the drug den?

 

August 23, 2016 7:15 am  #9


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

Well, I agree, it would have to be dine very cleverly. In this context I remembered Amanda's words from SDCC about the thing that would be making TV history if they could pull it off. Pulling of an EMP without losing the faith of their viewers is quite a task. 

I do not think that it starts right at the drug den because then we would lose a decisive event - Sherlock being shot by Mary. The only way for this would be Sherlock being already suspicious of her and then, while being drugged, imagining this scenario. 

Personally I would set the start of EMP either at Sherlock never waking up in the hospital or after the 221B scene. I slightly tend to version 1 because from this moment on to me everything seems off. You have read my list, added Mycroft's behaviour , and there is more. The sudden appearance of boltholes that have never been mentioned. The whole gun-in-Appledore scenario. And so on. To me, the whole second half of HLV seems off in a way we did not have before in any episode. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

August 23, 2016 4:00 pm  #10


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

I see, but at the moment, am finding it hard to believe...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 23, 2016 5:09 pm  #11


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

I'm sorry, I've got to the meta that says that custard = vagina and fish fingers = penis, so the Doctor is bisexual.  I'm sure it must be tongue in cheek! (And the Doctor seems to be omnisexual, anyway - no simple binaries for him!).

 

August 23, 2016 5:37 pm  #12


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

LOL, that was not the reason I posted the link. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
 But the comparison with the DW episode was quite interesting in showing the means of distinguishing between dream and reality. Of course the shows are not the same but if you watch both (as I do) you find similarities which I take to be idiosyncrasies/preferences of Moffat's. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

August 23, 2016 6:02 pm  #13


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

I agree that there are some similarities. 

Reading this one now:

WHAT IF the point of all this dreaming is to exercise reverse psychology? What if part of getting the general audience to accept johnlock is showing how HORRIBLE it would all be if John in fact stayed with Mary?  So Sherlock dreams that John goes back to Mary and basically they are both ruined by it and it’s awful and the audience is all pissed off, and then ‘surprise’, no, that was all a dream. And then when johnlock happens, everyone can be relieved instead of upset at the gay.

No, this goes completely against how Moftiss claim they would show gay characters.  And there is the Doctor Who parallel with Jenny and Vastra.  I don't think Moftiss would cater to the minority who would be "upset at the gay", and I'd very disappointed if they did.  (Plus they've been pretty emphatic about Johnlock not happening).   But seriously, all those terrible things happening, just so people can say "at least being gay isn't as bad as being a murderer", etc. 

I'm not talking about your meta, Susi.  I do think there are oddities and inconsistencies, and we do have precedent for things turning out to be mind palace.  And reading that meta above, reminded me of the drugs on the plane.  Nakahara did a really good post about this after TAB, which I know I will never be able to find again, showing that the most likely explanation was that Sherlock didn't take drugs at all.    But however, you look at it, it's odd and raises questions (where did he get them?  What did he take?  Why/when did he make the list?  How could he think for over an hour when he was only out for a few minutes? How did he bounce back so quickly? Etc.).  I know that's just TAB, but still. 

And Christmas is odd.  Why is Mycroft there if he doesn't do Christmas?  Why are Mary and John there together if they're not speaking?  (I suppose John wouldn't want to leave her alone at Christmas, but still). 

 

August 23, 2016 6:18 pm  #14


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

Sherlock had taken them there, hoping for a reconciliation.
I don't think even Mycroft dare defy Mummy!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 23, 2016 6:23 pm  #15


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

Liberty wrote:

And Christmas is odd.  Why is Mycroft there if he doesn't do Christmas?  Why are Mary and John there together if they're not speaking?  (I suppose John wouldn't want to leave her alone at Christmas, but still). 

Just two examples of things that go against what has been said on the show before.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 23, 2016 8:10 pm  #16


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

I did always find it rather ridiculous that he brought his Super Secret MI5 Laptop to dinner and let Mummy put the roast potatos on top of it.


Doomsteady on AO3 & Tumblr
 

August 23, 2016 8:12 pm  #17


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

Yes, but then why go to such efforts to try and keep Sherlock away from CAM?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 23, 2016 8:19 pm  #18


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

Well, it has occured to me that Mycroft might be setting the thing up (with the intention that John will conveniently kill Magnussen, perhaps). 

 

August 23, 2016 8:24 pm  #19


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

I just don't see that.
Why would he use John that way?
Isn't he more likely to use Mary?
And maybe he did...but little brother blew it!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 23, 2016 8:26 pm  #20


Re: The Extended Mind Palace/Dream Theory (contains spoilers)

GimmeCat wrote:

I did always find it rather ridiculous that he brought his Super Secret MI5 Laptop to dinner and let Mummy put the roast potatos on top of it.

The whole Christmas scene is surreal: Sherlock just being back from hospital, Mrs Holmes serving drugged tea to the woman who put a bullet in her boy, the Magnussen "flashback". 

And there is another interesting thing detail: Mrs Holmes is allegedly a mathematician, right? But the books Mary looks at is called "The Dynamics of Combustion", not really a mathematical subject. And what is more: someone recently made a screenshot of the page she is looking at. It is titled "The Thyroid Gland". Neither mathematics nor dynamics of combustion. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

Last edited by SusiGo (August 23, 2016 8:26 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum