Yitzock wrote:

Yes, there is a difference between being immoral and making mistakes, but I think people can say something insensitive simply because they do not realize they are being hurtful.

I think I was not clear enough in my question on whether the death of the person makes a difference. I think whether they are alive or not, the truth is important. What I meant by my question was this: do you think it is easier to ignore or forgive or not be bothered by such things if the person is dead? They themselves are no longer around to get any benefit from your enjoyment of what they have created. Of course, their actions may still have repercussions, but other than that, all that is left of them is what they have created. Again, I'm not sure if I completely agree with this idea, but it's a thought.

For me personally, no it doesn't make it easier if they are dead.

Honestly, for me it probably would.

For me, personally, this isn't about reason so much as a gut feeling.   It's kind of personal.   Well, thinking of it, it's very personal.   There are also actors I've had difficulty watching because they remind me of abusers - absolutely no fault of the actors themselves, but I find it difficult to see them as sympathetic, attractive characters. 

It sometimes doesn't even matter if anything has been proven.  For instance, I feel that way about Sean Bean and I think there were domestic violence allegations years ago, but I don't think he's been found guilty of anything - it's just that the idea is in my head now, and I don't look at him in the same way.  

So to answer your question, I don't think it would make any difference (thankfully, the actors I have this problem with are all living!) if they were dead, or even if the victims were dead.  It's not about not wanting to give them money by supporting their work, but about the feelings seeing them provoke in me.  

Whether their work should be supported  - well, that's interesting, and I think it has come up with the BBC as they used to regularly show Top of the Pops repeats, but so many of the 70s episodes included people guilty of sex crimes and those episodes are no longer shown.   I have mixed feelings about this - on the one hand, who wants these people to benefit financially?  And I'm sure the victims don't want to see those faces.  On the other hand, it's a form of censorship and it almost feels (to me) like sweeping it under the carpet and pretending it didn't happen.   I would feel very uncomfortable if all "art" by people who are guilty of sexual or violent crimes was erased. 

besleybean wrote:

I can still recognise somebody is a talented actor, even if I think they are(were) a complete a-hole...Charlton Heston, springs too mind.

Yes, very good example. I've always liked Charlton Heston, particularly since some of his mannerisms reminded me of my own father. So I was really disappointed when I learned about his NRA stance. 

However, that doesn't diminish how I feel about him as an actor, and how he still reminds me of my father. I just strongly disagree with his views.

Liberty, you are exactly right!  For me it's not about not wanting to give them my money, but how I feel when I see them.  The sight of Woody Allen honestly turns my stomach.  

I agree it's not only about whether or not they get money, I just thought maybe I could be a bit provocative.

Luckily there aren't too many people whose work I have enjoyed who also seem to be icky people

I am not a Sean Penn fan and don't have interest in his other movies, but I still like the film Milk. I say, it's good if you forget it's Sean Penn. But obviously that's easier for me to do than it would be for someone who knows him and was hurt by him.

It's difficult sometimes. Not only because we want to believe creative, talented people are good, but because they can be very influential people who inspired other artists and broke ground. In a way, you have to respect the work, but that is complicated by not having respect for the person.

For me to say an idol has fallen takes a lot in a way... The media blows a lot of things out of proportions and tends to make stuff up as well. Some celebrities have even had close friends sell lies to the tabloids about them. 

So I might give them the benefit of the doubt for a long, long while. Johnny Depp has worried me for a while when I've seen him on chat-shows. I will admit that. 

I also did fall 'out of love' with an actor... I still watch his films... but my interest died after he said some pretty rude things about his fans, (at the same time as I got into some stupid drama having almost an entire fansite turn on me because one crazy nut and a mod spread rumours about me...) so yeah... 

I guess my patience stems from becoming a Michael Jackson fan (may he rest in peace) during some of the most difficult years to be a fan of the man... you wouldn't believe the crazy lies and slander there's been about that man, that I've had thrown in the face by haters... And following the court case was difficult for me... I tried to keep an open mind and actually follow the evidence... 
I will admit, had I found any of the evidence to be true and had I had a bad feeling about him my fandom would have ended. I found nothing worrisome. I still don't. 

The media only tends to print the bad news, and if there isn't any they fabricate the rest. Grasping at straws to spin stuff. They never print the positive evidence for some 'funny' reason. You have to dig so deep to find that, but it's out there. 

 

Certainly. There are some opinions that famous people I like happen to have. While I don't necessarily completely agree with them,I see where their point comes from and I understand why they would have it, given their experience. It's nothing earth-shattering,but it was something that temporarily gave me pause.

You mention a rocker. Personally, I find it a little disappointing every time I hear or read about another musician I like using drugs. I don't like it. But I don't think it bothers me as much as it used to. I know it's more something that hurts them, and even if not, it's their business in the end, their choice. With musicians it's often like that. I find it unfortunate, but I have accepted it more and it no longer taints my enjoyment too much.

Coming back to Sean Penn for a moment: I think he is an interesting and also difficult example, because apart from the fact that (IMO) he is a brilliant actor, he also is an example for an 'idol' that in his private life has been doing good as well as not so good things - just like the rest of us. He undoubtedly can't always control himself and tends to get violent against all sorts of people. At the same time, I'd call him a political activist, someone who has his convictions and sticks with them. He has an opinion and isn't afraid to voice it, especially if it's going against the government - I would really love to hear his opinion on Donald Trump, although I can already imagine what Penn would have to say about him. Actually, thanks to celebrities like Sean Penn (and I'm sure he hates to be called a celebrity) I haven't lost my faith in the common sense of the USA completely yet.

God this is a good discussion!
Ok, general points first: oh believe me Liberty, even when I was sitting at Scottish Socialist Party conferences, I used to shake my head and yes, I have certainly lost faith in the extreme Left.
I hate personality politics and(or maybe that's 'but'?!) will always try and judge people on what they say and do.
I have mixed feelings on setting a good example thing.
Although everybody has the right to a private life, I do tend to think celebs should set a good example- particularly if thy have young and in impressionable fans.
Hence my being so angry with Benedict about the smoking.
Incidentally, I also have limited sympathy with dying celebs who drank, smoked and took drugs etc. But again it may be more of a 'what a waste, died too young', thing- I would never be so churlish as it being  a 'serves them right' thing.
But I do get cross with people who will not accept that life style choices have implications. My hero Christopher Hitchens(chain smoker, heavy drinker) accepted that.
On Penn: yes I know he tussled with reporters etc...but I gather Madonna withdrew her allegations.

Last edited by besleybean (June 26, 2016 9:43 am)