besleybean wrote:

...
On your final point.
No, it doesn't matter at all.
Except in any instance you feel you are being accused of homophobia, just because you don't happen to see a gay paring.

Great point. There is a huge difference between simply not seeing characters that way and being homophobic.
This is why I think I've never met homophobic people in the fandom: they just wouldn't stick around.

besleybean wrote:

For me, even worse than that, is accusing the Sherlock team of queer-baiting.

I remember reading up on that because I've never seen the term before. The examples of shows given were so... shallow. Like, let's make somebody gay. For drama, ratings, and because it's considered cool. Smacked of disrespect from the show writers.
Mofftiss love John and Sherlock too much to be ever seriously suspected in queer-baiting. Obviously.

Last edited by ewige (June 12, 2016 10:28 am)

I can only chalk that up to her lack of faith in Mofftiss. Maybe she also had unpleasant experiences with other shows.
I mean, there is no evidence whatsoever that would support queer-baiting on Sherlock. Johnlockers see the slow progress towards their Happy End, others see a very special friendship. Everybody's happy, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_baiting

"...a queer relationship or character is hinted at to attract/appeal to the queer market, and then is denied, either modifying the character's behavior (making them enter an opposite gender relationship), playing it off as a joke (sometimes a recurring joke or trope), or denying the assumptions (in interviews, panels and such) without modifying the character's behavior."

Uh, guilty on all accounts - apart from the first one. I will never believe Mofftiss did it for money, and I do believe they have a greater plan and want to take it slowly, hence the repeated denial in the media.

I've never for a second thought they're queerbaiting. I'm just trying to explain myself how other people (maybe with a very superficial knowledge of the show?) might think that. Such peolple will see light only if Mofftiss deliver in the end or - I don't know what the equivalent would be for "just" a male friendship. Maybe Sherlock admitting to his asexuality? But where's the mystery in it, where's the drama?

I figure show creators have no way to make everybody happy. Let's hope fandom doesn't prevent them from telling THEIR story (full circle to the first post in this thread). I'd love to see their vision play out, even if it doesn't include johnlock

I would have to say that in my experience, fan culture is the most including, tolerant and prejudice-free place I've ever experienced. To the point where I think it's TOO tolerant. You can find fanfics and fanart about incest and beastiality without anyone batting an eyelid, a phenomenon that has disturbed me for years.

But homophobia? I can see that in the casual viewer, but not in fandoms. I've never seen more love for slash and same-sex pairings as I have in fandoms. Not just Sherlock, but more or less any fandom I've ever come across.

Oooh, sounds interesting. Maybe for another thread?

As someone who follows more than one fandom I am going to contribute my tuppenyworth. All shows and filtered by the viewer through their own experiences and expectations. Often you can watch exactly the same show, exactly the same episode, as someone else but when you read their interpretations you think 'are we actually watching the same show?' People often see and hear what they wish to see and hear.

As for homophobia many men, especially in my experience older men, are scared and wary of gay men. They make inappropriate comments and have negative reactions through their prejudice and conditioning. They often seem to be unaware that their comments etc. are not acceptable and are riddled with misconceptions. Regarding lesbianism however, they see that as tittilating, I think because they don't see it as a threat to themselves or their sexuality.

In my experience women are far more accepting of gay, lesbian and other orientations. This, I believe, comes down to the male heirarchical dominance of society combined with a lack of tolerance for those who are perceived as being 'different'. Women have generally been subjugated and therefore are more tolerant of other groups who are also subjugated (unless they've been frankly brainwashed by some religious group or another- often male dominated). Younger people (male and female) seem generally to be far more tolerant and less prejudiced.

I remember that series, Liberty! I think I read them when I was too young, it took some of my innocence 

Interesting views on the topic, Davina and Liberty, thank you.

(Sorry, I know we're still OT)!
But just to say: the only complication for me is Lil Charles not knowing...