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April 14, 2016 8:53 pm  #1


Redbeard Previsited

There seem to be parallels between Sherlock and Redbeard, and Henry and the Hound.
It might be a possible explanation of Redbeard foreshadowing here.

"You'd started to piece things together, remember what really happened here that night. It wasn't an  animal, was it, Henry? Not a monster. A man."

"You couldn't cope. You were just a child, so you rationalised it into something very different. But then you started to remember, so you had to be stopped; driven out of your mind so that no-one would believe a word that you said."




edit: thread title

Last edited by Harriet (April 14, 2016 9:59 pm)


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April 14, 2016 9:03 pm  #2


Re: Redbeard Previsited

... and after that I discovered this little meta about the Hound (not) being put down, and Redbeard and Sherlock:

http://shinysherlock.tumblr.com/post/74502312820/wsswatson-the-hounds-of-baskerville-sherlock

Last edited by Harriet (April 14, 2016 9:03 pm)


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April 14, 2016 9:13 pm  #3


Re: Redbeard Previsited

This is really interesting. I have read a lot of Redbeard theories and I think there may have been a real dog AND a traumatic incident other than the dog's death. Some trauma Sherlock has "rationalised" into the death of his childhood dog. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

April 14, 2016 9:29 pm  #4


Re: Redbeard Previsited

Ooooh, I never thought about that, but it makes a lot of sense. Sherlock perhaps rationalizing Redbeard to the family dog when perhaps there was something else behind it. That makes to me a valid explanation for the nagging feeling that a dog alone isn't "enough" for his strong reactions.


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April 15, 2016 7:07 am  #5


Re: Redbeard Previsited

Indeed. And HoB is a sort of turning point as well - the first time that we see Sherlock acknowledging feelings when drugged. We do not know if he did so while being drugged by Irene but here it is very clear. And let us not forget the scene at the end when again under the influence of the drugs he sees Moriarty's distorted face.
So I think that the drug in connection with the Hound might case have started to trigger suppressed memories. These are the first hints of Redbeard and the fact that he is mentioned in TAB lets me believe that this part of the story is far from over. 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (April 15, 2016 7:08 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

April 15, 2016 8:18 am  #6


Re: Redbeard Previsited

SusiGo wrote:

This is really interesting. I have read a lot of Redbeard theories and I think there may have been a real dog AND a traumatic incident other than the dog's death. Some trauma Sherlock has "rationalised" into the death of his childhood dog. 
 

 
If Redbeard would be a sign or symbol of a traumatic incident, why did Sherlock thought about him as he wanted to calm down? Wouldn't be the risk that he was upset about his dog or the traumatic incident greater in this dangerously situation? I can not see how the dog could be a symbol for something beautyful and simultaneous for a traumatic incident of his childhood.

 

April 15, 2016 8:39 am  #7


Re: Redbeard Previsited

Well, I think the dog was only second choice when looking for something to calm him down. I think he was looking for John and Mary the shooting barred his way. Only then did he try the dog. The sad conclusion being that apart from John there is actually nothing to calm him down. 

I think Redbeard can be both things. He was a beloved pet. He died. Sherlock was sad. And his grief somehow became tied up with another even greater trauma. I can see this happen. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

April 15, 2016 9:05 am  #8


Re: Redbeard Previsited

Danielle80 wrote:

If Redbeard would be a sign or symbol of a traumatic incident, why did Sherlock thought about him as he wanted to calm down? Wouldn't be the risk that he was upset about his dog or the traumatic incident greater in this dangerously situation? I can not see how the dog could be a symbol for something beautyful and simultaneous for a traumatic incident of his childhood.

I also think the answer is because it was both to him. Redbeard has two sides, his life and his death, both in their particular important meaning to Sherlock.

Do you think, Danielle, that there is no link between Hound and Redbeard?
We have several text evidence that hint to such link.


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April 15, 2016 9:31 am  #9


Re: Redbeard Previsited

Another interesting thing about this, though, is that towards the end of HoB, Sherlock doesn't seem to understand that someone can struggle with the "sentiment" of putting down their dog. That doesn't fit at all with the death of his childhood dog being a traumatic incident in his life. 


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April 15, 2016 9:33 am  #10


Re: Redbeard Previsited

Thank you for your explanations. My first thought was if I want to calm down I would avoid thinking about something which could bring back bad memories. But I agree that there could be a link between Redbeard and the Hound of Baskerville.

 

April 15, 2016 9:34 am  #11


Re: Redbeard Previsited

Vhanja: That could show how much he repressed what he had felt then, a sign of how big the trauma was actually.

Last edited by Harriet (April 15, 2016 9:35 am)


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
     Thread Starter
 

April 15, 2016 9:39 am  #12


Re: Redbeard Previsited

Following up on Susi's thoughts, if Sherlock had started opening up emotionally in that episode, we might expect some contradictory behaviour, too. Like a longing for Redbeard's comfort and a dread of more death experience.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
     Thread Starter
 

April 15, 2016 9:43 am  #13


Re: Redbeard Previsited

Vhanja wrote:

Another interesting thing about this, though, is that towards the end of HoB, Sherlock doesn't seem to understand that someone can struggle with the "sentiment" of putting down their dog. That doesn't fit at all with the death of his childhood dog being a traumatic incident in his life. 

I think this could indicate that Sherlock isn't a real sociopath. In my opionion all the scenes which showed the young Sherlock did not fit to that what the older Sherlock seems to be.
 

 

April 15, 2016 9:46 am  #14


Re: Redbeard Previsited

I think it's very clear, even from the first episode, that Sherlock isn't a sosiopath. I just find it a bit odd that just someone saying the name "Redbeard" makes Sherlock freak out, yet he seems completely oblivious to the fact that someone might struggle with putting down their dog.

Could be as you say, Harriet, about it being too repressed. When was Redbeard first mentioned? Mycroft in TSoT?


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

April 15, 2016 10:13 am  #15


Re: Redbeard Previsited

He was not allowed / did not allow himself to struggle too much with what happened back then.

Susi pointed out how Sherlock's character developed between the two scenes. The fortress had begun to wobble, he tried to keep it stable, it doesn't work.

Yes, right before John's wedding.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
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April 15, 2016 10:20 am  #16


Re: Redbeard Previsited

Btw, I still wonder how Magnussen learned about Redbeard. Could it have been in Kitty Riley's article? 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

April 15, 2016 10:32 am  #17


Re: Redbeard Previsited

But are we sure that Redbeard is really a dog?
I can´t find the original source, but it seems Mofftiss suggested after TAB that Redbeard could be another thing (human maybe, or something else...)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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April 15, 2016 10:36 am  #18


Re: Redbeard Previsited

At least we are shown a dog in both episodes. And these are the dogs I'm talking about.
The quotes I introduced this thread with of course also hint towards another meaning.

"You'd started to piece things together, remember what really happened here that night. It wasn't an  animal, was it, Henry? Not a monster. A man."

"You couldn't cope. You were just a child, so you rationalised it into something very different. But then you started to remember, so you had to be stopped; driven out of your mind so that no-one would believe a word that you said."


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
     Thread Starter
 

April 15, 2016 11:24 am  #19


Re: Redbeard Previsited

nakahara wrote:

But are we sure that Redbeard is really a dog?
I can´t find the original source, but it seems Mofftiss suggested after TAB that Redbeard could be another thing (human maybe, or something else...)

Yes, there was a dog called Redbeard if we assume that HLV mind palace is based on real events. Young Sherlock says: "Hello, Redbeard. Here, boy. Come on!"Hello, Redbeard. Here, boy. Come on! Come to me. It’s okay. It’s all right. Come on! It’s me! It’s me, come on! Come on! Good boy! Clever boy! Hello, Redbeard. They’re putting me down too, now. It’s no fun, is it?

I think this plus the fact that we see him patting a dog does not leave any doubt. But this does not mean that Sherlock might not associate the lost dog with another trauma. As long as he can consciously suppress both memories - dog and other trauma - like in the HoB dialogue about sentiment, all is fine. But the moment drugs (TAB) or emotional upheaval (TSoT) or physical pain (HLV) come into play, the walls break down. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

April 15, 2016 11:41 am  #20


Re: Redbeard Previsited

In light of the things that follow as the series progresses, I see Sherlock's seeming misunderstanding of "sentiment" at the end of HOB as keeping up appearances with John.  I'm sure after the events of Dartmoor he was feeling a bit over exposed and vulnerable.


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