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January 25, 2016 12:40 pm  #61


Re: The Watson marriage - HLV and TAB

Liberty wrote:

I think she wants to go with John in particular, rather than that she wants to a detective.

Wich would very much against Canon and against what the writers have said the show is - the Sherlock and John show. I know there are viewers who wish to see a trio instead of two men solving crimes but I am not one of them. And I am not alone in this. Which, btw, has nothing to do with me not being a feminist - I would watch a show in which Sherlock and John were female. Anytime. But one of the key elements, if not THE key element, of the SH universe in any adaptation is that is is about two friends, not a man, his friend, and his wife. 

This is also why I really dislike the "Saving Sholto" scene in TSoT. Better not get me started about that since for me there is so much wrong with it.

But the thing is that if they had wanted to show this trio, they chose a strange way to do so. Because the connection between Sherlock, John and Mary in TAB is close to zero. I see no friendship, no warmth, no love there, neither in the Victorian nor in the modern scenes. And this cannot be a coincidence. This is Sherlock's innermost self analysing the situation. 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (January 25, 2016 12:48 pm)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 25, 2016 12:48 pm  #62


Re: The Watson marriage - HLV and TAB

Indeed it's just over a week since Mary and John had their big Christmas Day reconciliation and then Sherlock shot Magnussen in RL.

In Sherlocks MP he is seeing the marriage as dysfunctional. He doesn't really address Mary when he sees her. Not properly, as a client yes but... Not as a person.

Last edited by Little Weed (January 25, 2016 1:27 pm)


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January 25, 2016 1:23 pm  #63


Re: The Watson marriage - HLV and TAB

Schmiezi wrote:

Liberty wrote:

Mary actually has two successful careers, both in the modern day and in the mind palace!   Both of her careers "work" in the Victorian times.

What careers are that? Nurse and assassin?

I'm thinking more the secret agent/spy aspect for the Victorian times in particular.  Clearly her sex doesn't get in the way of her being a spy (it might even be an advantage in some circumstances).  There were also nurses in Victorian times and it was considered a woman's occupation, so no problem there either. 
 

 

January 25, 2016 1:37 pm  #64


Re: The Watson marriage - HLV and TAB

SusiGo wrote:

Liberty wrote:

I think she wants to go with John in particular, rather than that she wants to a detective.

Wich would very much against Canon and against what the writers have said the show is - the Sherlock and John show. I know there are viewers who wish to see a trio instead of two men solving crimes but I am not one of them. And I am not alone in this. Which, btw, has nothing to do with me not being a feminist - I would watch a show in which Sherlock and John were female. Anytime. But one of the key elements, if not THE key element, of the SH universe in any adaptation is that is is about two friends, not a man, his friend, and his wife. 

This is also why I really dislike the "Saving Sholto" scene in TSoT. Better not get me started about that since for me there is so much wrong with it.

But the thing is that if they had wanted to show this trio, they chose a strange way to do so. Because the connection between Sherlock, John and Mary in TAB is close to zero. I see no friendship, no warmth, no love there, neither in the Victorian nor in the modern scenes. And this cannot be a coincidence. This is Sherlock's innermost self analysing the situation. 
 

I agree: I definitely do not want to see the "crimesolving trio", and I'm reassured by the way that Moftiss talk about the show and Sherlock and John's relationship that we not turn into that.   But in the mind palace, it still looks as if Sherlock sees Mary as wanting to join them - I'm kind of surprised that nobody else seems to see it that way, to be honest.  Good point about Sholto though - it may have been that incident that gave Sherlock the idea (Mary running after them). 

I keep in mind that Sherlock has not seen John and Mary happily married, except very briefly.  Mary shoots him just after the wedding (I personally think that the first scene in TAB with Mary refers to this), and John and Mary had only tentatively reconciled (outside of Sherlock's view) just before Sherlock shot Magnussen and went to prison.  They're not playing happy families, and I think the mind palace reflects that.  There is definitely some conflict in the Victorian scenes - in the modern scenes it's more difficult to tell because the scenes are so brief and they are focused on Sherlock, but presumably they haven't moved on much - there's hardly any time between the reconciliation and the airport. 

 

January 25, 2016 4:51 pm  #65


Re: The Watson marriage - HLV and TAB

Here is another little meta of mine about this subject:

The silence of the Watsons

I am still not over how they depict the Watson marriage in TAB. Mary has to dress up as a client to tear John away from Sherlock. The next thing we see is the maid revealing that there has been no married life to speak of even after John returned to their married home. Two people living under same roof, hardly seeing each other. Is this how Sherlock imagines their marriage? 

And this silence continues in the modern scenes. In the first and third which are generally assumed to be real (leaving the other theories aside for the sake of the argument), they do not exchange a single word. John talks to Sherlock and Mycroft, Mary talks to Sherlock and Mycroft. The only piece of dialogue they have at all is in the modern MP scene:

JOHN: I’m taking Mary home.
MARY: You’re what?
JOHN: Mary’s taking me home.
MARY: Better.

Well. Of course one may argue that Sherlock is the most important person here which is true. But at the same time it does nothing to disprove the impression that this marriage is a strange one. 

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 25, 2016 4:58 pm  #66


Re: The Watson marriage - HLV and TAB

Two unconventional characters in an unusual marriage.


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January 25, 2016 6:24 pm  #67


Re: The Watson marriage - HLV and TAB

Wow, I never noticed they don't talk to each other  o.O

Thank you for posting this, Susi.


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"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 25, 2016 6:28 pm  #68


Re: The Watson marriage - HLV and TAB

A telling find, Susi. (Well, some may say couples are most happy if they avoid talking altogether, but I'm not sure in this case, though  )

Last edited by Harriet (January 25, 2016 6:29 pm)


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January 25, 2016 6:30 pm  #69


Re: The Watson marriage - HLV and TAB

Thank you. And while talking may not be the only thing that keeps a relationship together, hardly seeing each other prevents other things from happening as well. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 25, 2016 6:32 pm  #70


Re: The Watson marriage - HLV and TAB

SusiGo wrote:

Nakahara: I agree. I do not see the need for that, especially not in a classic universe like the Holmes/Watson one. There are better ways of adapting the story to modern needs and IMO it has been done well with characters like Sarah and Sally. 

And Molly!  Don't forget Molly. =)

 

 

January 25, 2016 6:45 pm  #71


Re: The Watson marriage - HLV and TAB

I think Mary out toughs all the female characters...though Molly is my favourite.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

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