Swanpride wrote:

@stoertebecker Thanks for putting this in words...those were my feelings too, I was initially so elated about the episode and then suddenly the Mary nit-picking started again. I love your Kästner quote, btw, it's one of my favs. 

Perhaps I should stop defending Mary...it won't change anything either way. But it just seems to unfair to me when it comes to things like she supposedly pulling John away from Sherlock or bossing him around, when in fact John (not even real John but mind John) is the one who makes the decision in the scene and Mary is actually the one who is lead away. There is this disconnect between what is actually on screen, it's like there is some criticism refering to scenes which never happened in the first place.

Sorry, but I see 149 posts here without nitpicking. Almost even without mentioning Mary - until you started the discussion. Quite on purpose, as it seems:
“Okay, I am already apologizing for the discussion I will cause with this but....“
So please stop complaining. Nobody is nitpicking, but people have different opinions.

@Sherli Interesting thought. But that would mean the last scene of S3 was already in the MP, and I can't believe that. Hm....
 

stoertebeker wrote:

At the moment I have got the impression that it doesn't matter in which way Mary is in the show - she could stand in one corner without saying anything - people would still critizising it.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SAYING THIS! It's really getting rather tedious how people keep hating and bashing Mary, wanting her gone asap- Moriarty was way more dangerous and also more than deranged, and yet, everybody loved him, surprise.
Maybe it's really to do with some subconscious, deep-rooted jealousy rather than the character itself. Mary does add to the overall suspense, though, and being the unpredictable player that she is, she shouldn't be dismissed so soon. As Moffat and Gatiss have once more proven with the special, we probably haven't seen most of it yet, and there might be another unexpected twist to her.
In my opinion, she was lovely in the special, and I'm with Swanpride: she was mostly for comic relief and also to further emphasize how a lot of women were treated by their husbands back then (I really didn't see any of the supposed scene-stealing or attention-seeking or whatnot). Even though she is clever and has abilities, not only John expects her to fulfill her role, which due to the way it was written provided a lot of humour. It was brilliant how Mycroft as the cleverest of them all is the only one who appreciates that there's more to her than housekeeping. I'm looking forward to season four to see if this is being picked up in the modern day version.

Last edited by Kerkerian (January 3, 2016 9:25 am)

Kerkerian wrote:

In my opinion, she was lovely in the special, and I'm with Swanpride: she was mostly for comic relief and also to further emphasize how a lot of women were treated by their husbands back then (I really didn't see any of the supposed scene-stealing or attention-seeking or whatnot). Even though she is clever and has abilities, not only John expects her to fulfill her role, which due to the way it was written provided a lot of humour. It was brilliant how Mycroft as the cleverest of them all is the only one who appreciates that there's more to her than housekeeping. I'm looking forward to season four to see if this is being picked up in the modern day version.

Yes.  And a lot of what we saw of her was in Sherlock's mind palace, not actually her.  It seems that to imagine what it was like to be a woman in that setting, he imagined how the women (and the men!) he knew would act in it.  The graveyard scene with "better" is in Sherlock's mind only, and I think it was not only funny, but I comment on women's place and the throwaway comments that highlight that.   The whole thing is also a bit of a comment on women in the ACD stories, I suppose.   Mary even has to pretend to be a client to get John's attention/get into the story.  I approve of how Mary was shown in this episode.  Unlike some, I don't see her as cleverer than Mycroft, but I'm really glad that her past has been acknowledged and not brushed under the carpet, whether she turns out to be a goodie or a baddie in S4.
 

stoertebeker wrote:

At the moment I have got the impression that it doesn't matter in which way Mary is in the show - she could stand in one corner without saying anything - people would still critizising it.

“Some“ people, please....
Possible. But the same time there are some people who are just waiting for ONE critizising word and they jump in in order to “defend“ her. And not always in a nice way, either.

Again. There are different opinions. One should accept that and stay nice. ;-)
 

Mattlocked wrote:

Harriet wrote:

I find it rather tedious that the words "hating" and "bashing" are around again. Not respectful towards all the people here who just happen to have a different opinion.

 
*High five!*

It is what it is, guys. As has happened numerous times before, a general discussion about the episode has generated pages of Mary being discussed, some people bashing and others defending her. If someone feels treated disrespectfully because the terms "bashing" and "hating" are being used, well, my bad. I think the majority can take it.

Good!

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:

Listening to this song just left me in tears... it feels like it's about TAB... Sherlock could have written it practically

(The lyrics in the video are off... sorry...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYwrD1uMeUY


"I'll never be the bravest of us
Crossing my fingers when ever I'm cross
I wish I could love without having to fear, 
Baby's fingers got a burn, baby came too near. 
You'll never know all the trouble I've got,
Still haven't slept and it's 7 o'clock
Everything I have I could lose it in this fight,
Somebody's gotta tell me that I'm gonna be all right...

Oh it's crazy! It's crazy up in here!
I'm inside my head, How do I get out of it?
Oh it's crazy, I'ts crazy up in here! 
I'm inside my head, How do I get out of it?

And then he said: 'Honey'
And then she said: 'Honey!'
And then he said: 'Honey, 
You're on your own, you're on your own, own own...'

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha

Searching for sunlight, A winter inside, 
Thinking of circles, I cannot abide, 
Baby make me warm, 
Thaw the snow inside of me, 
Overflowing in my eyes, 
Turning to a sea, 
I'll never know what I'm capable of, If I don't go where I'm scared to be lost, 
Who will find my way when I'm going through the night?
Somebody gotta tell me that I'm going to be all right... 

Oh it's crazy! It's crazy up in here!
I'm inside my head, How do I get out of it?"

Oh this song...I definitely see why anyone could see it as being about TAB and why it could reduce anyone in tears, especially if one concentrates on the lyrics -which could have very well been written by Sherlock, indeed.

I've always loved the song, it's called 'Out of It' by Fallulah. The singer and writer actually went to the same high school as me... but now it has a whole different meaning to me. I was going through my playlist to find a good song for writing my One Shot inspired by the Special... and ... I think I found it. 

ancientsgate wrote:

And although I know it's not AA's fault, I'm sure she's a perfectly good actress, but why oh why oh why did they ever cast Martin's RL partner in the role?  So jarring, so easy to get taken out of the story, just remembering that. I know others disagree, which is fine.

What does that has do to with it??? Disliking a character is one thing and perfectly fine, we all have different opinions. But projecting this antipathy against the actor does cross a line for me.

Harriet wrote:

I find it rather tedious that the words "hating" and "bashing" are around again. Not respectful towards all the people here who just happen to have a different opinion.

 
Sometimes the way (choice of words) chritizism is being uttered seems very harsh and disrespectful as well. But I admit I am a bit oversensitiv in this regard at the moment. So I might perceive a comment as bashing whereas others wouldn't.

Mattlocked wrote:

stoertebeker wrote:

At the moment I have got the impression that it doesn't matter in which way Mary is in the show - she could stand in one corner without saying anything - people would still critizising it.

“Some“ people, please.... 

Yes, you're right. I should have phrased it like that. Sorry.

Mattlocked wrote:

Again. There are different opinions. One should accept that and stay nice. ;-)
 

I second that wholeheartly.

So, I've got a suggestion: There is already a Mary character thread or we can open an additional one for the special. Let's discuss the theme whether Mary is a goodie or baddie there. So those people who are feeling uncomfortable with this discussion can avoid these threads.

SolarSystem wrote:

stoertebeker wrote:

ancientsgate wrote:

And although I know it's not AA's fault, I'm sure she's a perfectly good actress, but why oh why oh why did they ever cast Martin's RL partner in the role?  So jarring, so easy to get taken out of the story, just remembering that. I know others disagree, which is fine.

What does that has do to with it??? Disliking a character is one thing and perfectly fine, we all have different opinions.

Oh...? And where is that coming from all of a sudden? Sorry, but two pages ago you basically asked the people who see Mary in a negative light to stop writing about it. But now it's "perfectly fine"...?
I'm confused. So is it okay now to state a negative opinion about Mary or not? And to make this clear: What I wrote about her had nothing to do with bashing or hating. I explained why I don't like her and why she is a disturbing factor in the show. If that is bashing and hating, then we have completely different opinions about the nature of discussions.
 

 
I didn't said anything like that. I didn't ask anyone to stop writing. I said that I wish that we stop tearing each other apart over the character of Mary. Because the discussions whether she is good or bad are leading to nothing. We are going in circles, filling pages of pages of comments and just goat each other. That is not fun anymore.
And yes there are some comments I am feeling very uncomfortable with, but as I said before I might be too oversensitive.

If I have offended you or anyone with my previous comment, then I am very sorry. That was truly never my intention. And please understand that as a serious apology.  Most of the time I'm keeping quiet in discussions because of the fear I got misunderstood. Well I should have stayed silent I suppose. I am sorry.