Don't send anyone away.  I like Mary fine in this episode, nothing about her bothered me.  I know it's not what everyone thinks, so I don't mind not getting into it.  There really just isn't much to get into except I laughed.

Did anyone else noticed that Sherlock was playing the wedding song on the violin in the scene where he plays?

SolarSystem wrote:

mrshouse wrote:

7) Mary. What I dreaded the most: everything swept under the rug and part of the inner circle of trust. After seeing her like that I see even less a future in the series for her. In every scene where she's involved she takes away from the two leads, that's the way I see it. And she's set up in a very unsympathetic light, stalking John at Baker Street and starting a domestic there. Even less sympathetic the plane scenes where just everybody is less smart and skilled than her. No thanks. The last we get to see is the " Better!" with a look that made me want to run away. Mofftiss, is that what a strong female character in2016 is for you? Double no.

Yes to all of this. I have no idea why Mofftiss seem to think that giving us such a female character could mean an improvement for the show. Like you said, mrshouse, it takes away so much from what I fell in love with initially. If things continue like this, it'll be time for me to move on. Happened with "Doctor Who", might happen with "Sherlock" as well.
 

Glad it´s not just me who feels that Mary was even more Mary Sue-ish here than in S3. Seriously, the moment she appeared around any other character, she reduced them to bumbling fools immediatelly.... John´s "Mary would take me home" was so over the top... every man in Mary´s vicinity must be symbolically castrated now to make her look cool? 
 

I don't see what Mary does as symbolically "castrating" anyone. I don't think it has to be that way.  Especially not the part where she gets past the security to read up on the case.  If Sherlock did something similar, everyone would admire how clever he is.  Moriarty is cool for doing even greater hacking in series 2, even if that was for a different purpose.  I like that we got to see Mary do that, and it was a fun moment when she makes the remark about the security.

It would be sad for me if the song was an indication of the marriage disintegrating, but a lot of people have speculated that that is what will happen.

Last edited by Yitzock (January 2, 2016 11:26 pm)

Yitzock wrote:

I don't see what Mary does as symbolically "castrating" anyone. I don't think it has to be that way.  Especially not the part where she gets past the security to read up on the case.  If Sherlock did something similar, everyone would admire how clever he is.  Moriarty is cool for doing even greater hacking in series 2, even if that was for a different purpose.  I like that we got to see Mary do that, and it was a fun moment when she makes the remark about the security.

The security remark was funny and I laughed as well, but I consider Mary´s super-skills over the top nevertheless. If Sherlock did something similar, everyone would admire him how clever he is - but Sherlock is the main hero of this story which still wears Conan Doyle´s name in its OP and so this is hardly surprising. This story is supposed to be about Sherlock´s geniality, not of Mary´s, anyway...

The situation with Mary reminds me of a recent adaptation of The Hobbit.... it was supposed to be about Bilbo, but in reality the story was entirely kidnapped in favour of Tauriel and Legolas... I´d hate to see similar thing happening with Sherlock too.
 

Oh, don't get me started on the Tauriel story!

But I actually liked that bit with Mary.  It gave us a little bit more information about what she did other than assassinating people (we were told that she was a secret agent, but not given any more detail).  It was funny.  And I think having her "working" openly in front of Mycroft (who clearly knows about her) was actually a pretty big reveal ... we'd all wondered how on earth Mycroft could have missed Mary's past.   This explained that he didn't.  (And the mind palace also suggests that Sherlock thinks Mary is/was working for Mycroft).  I liked being given all that information in the way that we saw it, with the hacking - being shown not told.

SolarSystem wrote:

Swanpride, I'm really sorry, but I just can't help the way in which the things Mary says and does work on me. Yes, Sherlock can be very arrogant, Mycroft can be very arrogant and Mary can be very arrogant, too. One should think that it doesn't make any difference, but for me it does, it's not all the same, even if all three of them are clever and arrogant. It's not what you say, but how you say it - that's what is making the difference for me here. And the fact that I fell in love with Sherlock and John and the chemistry they had in the first six episodes. This chemistry changed (among lots of other things) in S3, due to Mary. That's the way I see it, in a very condensed version.
And well, who defines what's criticism and what's 'being negative'...?
 

Amen to all of that.
 

SolarSystem wrote:

Swanpride, I'm really sorry, but I just can't help the way in which the things Mary says and does work on me. Yes, Sherlock can be very arrogant, Mycroft can be very arrogant and Mary can be very arrogant, too. One should think that it doesn't make any difference, but for me it does, it's not all the same, even if all three of them are clever and arrogant. It's not what you say, but how you say it - that's what is making the difference for me here. And the fact that I fell in love with Sherlock and John and the chemistry they had in the first six episodes. This chemistry changed (among lots of other things) in S3, due to Mary. That's the way I see it, in a very condensed version.
And well, who defines what's criticism and what's 'being negative'...?
 

 
I agree 200%

Vhanja wrote:

I'm gonna withhold final judgement over Mary and her place in the series until I've seen S4 (and possible more, depending on how the storyline goes). However, for the first time I agree with the Mary Sue-argument. For me, it wasn't the amount of screen time she had, but how she was portrayed in those minutes. Not only does she outshines Mycroft (as if outshining Sherlock isn't enough), she treats John as a lap dog. The latter is only Sherlock's MP, so hopefully it's not a realistic view of their relationship.

Then again, I am quite sure the "Mary will be taking me home" was just a Moftiss joke and not meant to be taken too seriously. I still didn't like it, though.

 
I agree with this also. *nodding *

Bravo, Vhanja!

I apologise for not answering the latest posts yet. I've just finished rewatching the episode, and I wanted to share my thoughts on the List and Jeanine's appearance.
I don't remember who said it, but yes, I do think that her being there is Sherlock acknowledging the fact that he treated her in a bit not good way : "The women I - we have lied to, ignored and disparaged".
Which also shows that he's aware that he's not treated Molly right.

About the List, just a passing comment. The first time it is mentioned, in the Stranger's Room with Mycroft, Sherlock replies to Mycroft's "Good boy" by saying "No. I haven't finished."
At first I thought that it was only a list in connection to the case he was investigating for Mycroft's benefit, but...seeing that the scene right after this one is the meditation scene + drug shooting, I can see the connection to the List's actual purpose. And Sherlock's line "I haven't finished" is rather...alarming.

(onto another viewing, now. I can't seem to get enough of it. Thank you, BBC iPlayer...!)