BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The Abominable Bride (for those who have seen it)

Liberty · January 2, 2016 6:06 pm

I thought Mary still looked pregnant (outside of the mind palace, I mean). Difficult to be sure in her loose clothing, but why wouldn't she be?

@Ancientsgate I know it will surprise nobody, but I didn't really get a Johnlocky vibe at all - quite the opposite. I thought the episode shed some light on the friendship (particularly Sherlock's view of John), and Sherlock's relationships with women. This was just Sherlock's mind palace, not out in the open, and if Johnlock had been a thing for him, it would have come out there, I think. He did make himself confront his feelings in the conversation with John, but he had John perceptively noting that he Sherlock was attracted to women, didn't he? Personally, I really liked mind palace John, and it's interesting that that's Sherlock's view of him (including John coming to rescue him!) - I think it's much more apparent how Sherlock kind of looks up to John, whatever he shows outwardly!

ancientsgate · January 2, 2016 6:08 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Random observation: Did they lose the red jacket Mary was wearing in season 3 somehow? I am pretty sure the one she wore this time around was different.

Forget the jacket. Did they lose the baby she was carrying somewhere? How strange.

Punch me in the face · January 2, 2016 6:09 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
..........But what about the baby?
Thank you. that was what I was just asking. ??? Could it be that the writers didn't know what to do with the baby or how to incorporate him or even the idea of him into the show, so they kind of winked and left him out?

I"ll probably Watch the episode again tonight, but from what I remember, you can clearly see she is pregnant in Sherlock's mind palace (the scene at the cemetary) and in "real life", in the plane scene...

I don't like her either. I've tried, i swear, but I just can't bring myself to liking her (Nothing to do with Amanda, of course, she's a really good actress, it's just the character of Mary). I don't think she's right for John, and I thought Sherlock was way too good to her in Season 3.

I'd rather not think of the baby right now. Killing him or killing both him (her?) and Mary would be cruel, true, and John would be devastated, but to be honest, I'm not sure I would mind... lol

ancientsgate · January 2, 2016 6:14 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Yeah, the show puts those woman in robes at the most gothic of places....and then Moriarty turns up and calls Sherlock out for adding those flourishes because even in his mind he likes to be dramatic. The important core in all of this is what Sherlock says about the position females had in society with "not even a vote", and that this is a fight they must lose because the females are right to demand more respect. There is no need to look for subtext, because for once, the text is as clear as it gets.

Funny-weird, that with only 90 minutes to work with, they'd take so much time and make such a big point about women's suffrage, back then and now, and in such a dark, obtuse way. Dressed up like pagan-Druid-KKK types and marching and chanting around inside a darkened "desanctified" church. WTF? That whole thing came out of left field (for me) and I still cannot imagine why it was included.

You know the opening scene when the crazy bride was up on the balcony and shooting down into the street, choosing her victims and terrorizing everyone down there, making them scream and run around? That so closely parallels what's going on today, when a lone terrorist gunman takes out his psychotic agenda on strangers in a public place, often from a vantage point that's hidden or up high. It kind of made me sick to watch that.

ancientsgate · January 2, 2016 6:18 pm

nakahara wrote:
...............Also the ending – Victorian Sherlock is looking out of Baker Street window, but the street below him is modern… Does that mean, Sherlock has a split personality now? His modern body lives in his flat, but his mind is trapped in Victorian Era where he converses with his ideal Imagined Watson because he can´t have real John? What do you think?

I don't think Sherlock is trapped there unless he wants to be. He retreats to his mind palace when he has a problem he's trying to solve, and also on occasion to escape his impossibly trying RL existence. It sure looks like he's aware that John could be his life partner ("why don't you just elope?") but in RL he knows that John is obtusely unaware of that and wants Sherlock to just BE NORMAL, for cryin' out loud, which Sherlock cannot do. Sad, to see John written in a way that shows so little understanding for Sherlock the man, the friend, the national treasure. He thinks he understands him, but Sherlock doesn't feel understood.

tonnaree · January 2, 2016 6:20 pm

After all the events of S3, especially HLV, I have no problem believing Sherlock would take the drugs. Doesn't mean I like it, but I understand.

SolarSystem · January 2, 2016 6:23 pm

Mary is still pregnant in 'our' Sherlock universe.
I can live with the fact that Sherlock doesn't need a pregnant Mary in his mind palace.

ancientsgate · January 2, 2016 6:24 pm

tonnaree wrote:
nakahara wrote:
Some people noticed that the elephant in the room was broken during the Moriarty scene. Interesting.

F*** that elephant. I never liked him.

Knowing this show, the damned thing will show up again in the next episode, as though nothing happened. No one stays dead on Sherlock. lol

ancientsgate · January 2, 2016 6:25 pm

Swanpride wrote:
The baby is still in Mary's Belly. Hard to overlook...

It should be. But I honestly did not notice a bump last night. Maybe because anytime Mary was in a scene, I was busy looking at John or Sherlock or Mycroft. And Mary was sitting on the plane, so the baby wouldn't have been so visible anyway.

Liberty · January 2, 2016 6:30 pm

She is either pregnant, or is holding a cushion under her coat in the graveyard scene! That's where I thought it was most obvious. But I still don't understand why she wouldn't be pregnant? There wasn't time for her to deliver before the plane got back.

Unless we're saying the WHOLE THING is mind palace (I did wonder, actually - but surely not?)

JP · January 2, 2016 6:34 pm

What we need now is a transcript. *pushes a huge pile of chocolate towards Ariane, not daring to look at her*

You all are so quick. I can't keep the pace! Don't you need to sleep?

Punch me in the face · January 2, 2016 6:36 pm

Found one earlier. Thank whoever posted it!

here you go: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=24430

SusiGo · January 2, 2016 6:39 pm

Someone had the idea that everything but the last wake-up scene is mind palace. Which would also explain Mary's supernatural hacking skills using nothing but Sherlock's phone and Mycroft's quiet acceptance of her.

besleybean · January 2, 2016 6:56 pm

Ok this is where it's gonna start getting really messy...cos yes I have now signed up for all the new threads and I will get to them in turn. But I see I have pages of this to catch up on, so I'm just gonna dive in and answer things here...so may repeat on new threads.
@Nakahara. Sorry, I have to disagree. The way Sherlock speaks about the Suffrgaettes to me is that they have organised themselves into fighting their oppression. I don't get the feeling he is against it at all.
It came across to me that they had been forced into a shadowy world by their oppression, they hid out of fear, not malevolence.
Again I see the gowns as hiding out of fear, not to appear threatening..the KKK parade in public.

Moving on: no I don't think Sherlock has a split personality. I think he lives firmly in the present and only used the Victorian case to deal with Moriarty.
@ancientsgate: John and Mary are still, married, together and expecting their first child! Tee Hee. Can I just say that I have SO enjoyd reading your responses in this thread..I hve been in hysterics!
@Susi: the CIA would have trained Mary to hack.

Last edited by besleybean (January 2, 2016 7:15 pm)

Liberty · January 2, 2016 6:57 pm

@ Susi, Could be. The animated corpse is clearly not real, despite being present day, which kind of makes that whole lead up seem to be mind palace.

Last edited by Liberty (January 2, 2016 7:06 pm)

silverblaze · January 2, 2016 7:03 pm

Liberty wrote:
besleybean wrote:
Except I wonder if Sherlock only tried to OD on the plane...sorry, I did mention that in my initial long ramble!
I think there are two possible scenarios:

1. Sherlock dosed up before he got on the plane. That's what Mycroft says, and he knows him well. I suppose in favour of this argument is the fact that he had to be calm while presumably quite distraught when leaving, and also that it was probably easier to take drugs before leaving rather than to take him with them (what was he planning?), and to make the list. However, Mary (I think) points out that he didn't seem drugged when he got on the plane.

2. Sherlock took the drugs on the plane. That's what Sherlock says, and he also claims that he did it deliberately to try to work out the Moriarty puzzle.

It's the first. I watched it again and Mycroft says that Sherlock had been high the whole time, and that 'addicts are the best deceivers', or something like that.

silverblaze · January 2, 2016 7:06 pm

Liberty wrote:
Could be. The animated corpse is clearly not real, despite being present day, which kind of makes that whole lead up seem to be mind palace.

No, the first present day scene is real when he wakes up in the plane. The second is dream: he wakes up in a bed and they go to the graveyard, then he realises he's still in a dream. The last one is real again, he's back in the plane.

The last scene in Baker Street I thought was just a little gift from the moftiss to mess with our heads, especially with the shots of the present day street.

ancientsgate · January 2, 2016 7:12 pm

Liberty wrote:
She is either pregnant, or is holding a cushion under her coat in the graveyard scene! That's where I thought it was most obvious. But I still don't understand why she wouldn't be pregnant? There wasn't time for her to deliver before the plane got back. Unless we're saying the WHOLE THING is mind palace (I did wonder, actually - but surely not?)

I'm sure I will see her pregnancy clearly when I rewatch. She has to still be pregnant. The only thing I can figure is that I must have been looking at everyone else whenever she was around. Anytime Sherlock and John are visible, my eyes are on them. Sooooo much to see in this episode, I look forward to seeing it again and taking even more in.

One problem of dragging out this pregnancy over 4+ years of real time filming is that AA is going to start looking more and more and more like a "mature" mom by the time the baby makes an appearance. But the writers roped themselves into that baby thing, and now they're going to have to get themselves out of it, eventually.

Liberty · January 2, 2016 7:15 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Liberty wrote:
besleybean wrote:
Except I wonder if Sherlock only tried to OD on the plane...sorry, I did mention that in my initial long ramble!
I think there are two possible scenarios:

1. Sherlock dosed up before he got on the plane. That's what Mycroft says, and he knows him well. I suppose in favour of this argument is the fact that he had to be calm while presumably quite distraught when leaving, and also that it was probably easier to take drugs before leaving rather than to take him with them (what was he planning?), and to make the list. However, Mary (I think) points out that he didn't seem drugged when he got on the plane.

2. Sherlock took the drugs on the plane. That's what Sherlock says, and he also claims that he did it deliberately to try to work out the Moriarty puzzle.
It's the first. I watched it again and Mycroft says that Sherlock had been high the whole time, and that 'addicts are the best deceivers', or something like that.

I know he says that, but I still think it's ambiguous. He's wrong about Sherlock being an addict, so he may well be wrong about when the drugs were taken (none of them picked up on it). Sherlock is clearly in a different state in TAB than he is at the end of HLV. That could just be due to timing - that he took the drugs before boarding, knowing the effect wouldn't hit him for a few minutes - but the timing would have to be VERY precise (of course, Sherlock would be the one to do it accurately!). I think at this point, Mycroft is concerned about Sherlock above all, and may well be getting it wrong (as he has done before).

The thing that would sway me most to No 1, is Sherlock saying that he doesn't need the drugs now because he's got work (or words to that effect) - that does suggest that he took the drugs for their effect rather than to solve the puzzle. But I still think it's not clear either way.

Vhanja · January 2, 2016 7:15 pm

silverblaze wrote:
No, the first present day scene is real when he wakes up in the plane. The second is dream: he wakes up in a bed and they go to the graveyard, then he realises he's still in a dream. The last one is real again, he's back in the plane.

The last scene in Baker Street I thought was just a little gift from the moftiss to mess with our heads, especially with the shots of the present day street.

I agree, this is how I view the last scenes as well.

On a slightly different note - Martin has been quoted to say that the annoyance about Victorian costume, was that he couldn't dress himself as he can with modern shoots. Sorry for the stupid question, but what about the Victorian suit is that a man would need help with? Is't it just trousers, shirt, vest and jacket? Same parts as a modern day suit, only more formal and in a different fabric?