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October 21, 2015 5:16 pm  #21


Re: The third explanation

SusiGo wrote:

Yes. I always had difficulties in understanding why it was placed there and how it did fit in the narrative but this explains so many things. And it tells us a lot about John's feelings and his way of thinking and how he perceives Sherlock. 

Yes indeed.

Additionally, it conveniently address the problem of why "Sherlock's" own explanation still doesn't seem to make complete sense.

 

October 21, 2015 5:18 pm  #22


Re: The third explanation

This is brilliant, Magingus. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

October 21, 2015 5:22 pm  #23


Re: The third explanation

All credit goes to Harriet.

This is almost too good!  Looks like TEH is the next episode in line to watch.

 

October 21, 2015 5:25 pm  #24


Re: The third explanation

Thanks. And to Ariane, the script-recorder. It also might explain Anderson's quite surreal actions. Somehow I never bought these, but without having a better idea 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

October 21, 2015 5:28 pm  #25


Re: The third explanation

And thanks to the brilliant wellthengameover. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

October 21, 2015 5:36 pm  #26


Re: The third explanation

Of course! 

Ariane, if you read this: I wonder if this part here perhaps needs to be thought about again:

John meets his eyes for a moment, then he takes in a deep breath through his nose, closes his eyes, raises his head and braces himself for death.

Perhaps he is doing something else instead, imagining what had happened (and how Sherlock rather included Anderson (of all people!) into his plans instead of him).

Last edited by Harriet (October 21, 2015 5:37 pm)


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

October 22, 2015 3:37 am  #27


Re: The third explanation

I was re-watching ASIP today with the commentary on, and Mark says something like "It's the reason why we join the stories with Watson... A couple of the stories are narrated by Sherlock Holmes and they're not the same, I mean they have charms. But he has to keep things from you because he knows what's going on and actually you need to see it through John Watson's eyes." This makes me think that Moftiss don't actually want to show us the explanation from Sherlock's POV, so I like the idea that the third explanation is in John's imagination. I'll have to rewatch TEH again!

Last edited by ukaunz (October 22, 2015 3:41 am)


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http://s6.postimg.org/dh9cqa93l/sherlock_sketch_signature.jpg
 

October 22, 2015 7:34 am  #28


Re: The third explanation

Wow, we've got another one! Thanks, ukaunz! 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

October 22, 2015 7:42 am  #29


Re: The third explanation

Excellent. And I had another idea as well that fits the picture (quotes as always from Ariane):

"I calculated that there were thirteen possibilities once I’d invited Moriarty onto the roof."

So John has this information. And he gets very upset when learning that other people were involved in the plan:

"Okay. So just your brother, and Molly Hooper, and a hundred tramps." (We know what happens next).

So we have John being furious that Sherlock trusted others to help him while he himself believed him to be dead. IMO this explains the inclusion of Anderson in the scene. While I cannot imagine why Sherlock should turn to Anderson and even let himself being filmed, this is exactly what John would think:

"Fine, Molly knew, Mycroft knew, their parents knew, the homeless network knew, and probably even a nerd and former enemy like Anderson knew, everyone but me!"
 


 

Last edited by SusiGo (October 22, 2015 7:42 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

October 22, 2015 7:45 am  #30


Re: The third explanation

Oh, yes, I felt like "Anderson, of all people!!!" and now this fits so well!


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

October 22, 2015 11:15 am  #31


Re: The third explanation

Charming theory, but there is a big "hole" in it...

Right after Sherlock reveals details of his survival to Anderson, he jumps at another topic, identifies Anderson as a culprit in "Jack The Ripper - Sceleton" case and confronts him with his deductions.

Now, we, an audience, saw Sherlock investigating that case, so we know what he´s speaking about.

But John wouldn´t know. John was not present by the investigation of that case, because he shunned Sherlock at that time. It was Molly who aided Sherlock with it. For all we know, John is not even aware that Sherlock was ever connected with the strange sceletal remains found in the London Underground. And because he never saw the things discovered nor heard deductions spoken over them by Sherlock, there´s no reason for him to connect the whole thing with Anderson.

Aside from that - you cannot really imagine something you don´t know, some facts, that never entered your conscious mind....

Plus, psychollogically: would John want to imagine Anderson as the last thing before his demise?

Therefore I believe the scene between Sherlock and Anderson really took place in BBC Sherlock reality, it was only unusually placed in an episode itself - only to heighten the thrill about the eventual fate of both our "boys".


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

October 22, 2015 12:25 pm  #32


Re: The third explanation

I can't see the "big hole". John can make the connection with Anderson as the last person whom he wanted Sherlock to share such knowledge with. He doesn't need to know about that case, when everyone around him apparently *knew* except for him. "Anderson" is then just the top of it.

Would want John to imagine Anderson as the last thing? No, of course not. But he feels compelled to, which adds to John's tragic here, his feelings of loneliness and being left out.

The Sherlock-Anderson scene is kind of weird: The video, their discussion, Anderson's behaviour.
Our interpretation gives a good reason why it was filmed like that.

So at the moment, I stay convinced.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

October 22, 2015 12:45 pm  #33


Re: The third explanation

But he imagines details of the case he knows nothing of? (He is not even aware that there was any case?) How is that possible? Is John a clairvoyant?

Also, when John told "Of course, I forgive you" to Sherlock in a train car, I had an impression that he speaks about his true feelings there - that he doesn´t want to leave this Earth filled with recriminations and bitterness towards Sherlock, but wants to convey how important and dear to his heart Sherlock was.

And yet right after he imagines a scene which has as its main message: "That c**ock never told to me how he survived, but I´m so sure he told even Anderson, grrr, I hate him and this is how their dialog went, for sure!" If John is even a bit generous and kind, why would he cherish such feelings of recrimination in his very last moments alive?


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

October 22, 2015 12:47 pm  #34


Re: The third explanation

I see what you mean. But if this is a plothole, then what about this?

JOHN: Let me come through, please.
(The bystanders try to hold him back.)
WOMAN: It’s all right ...
JOHN: No, he’s my friend.
WOMAN: It’s all right, it’s all right.
JOHN: No, he’s my friend.
(The woman continues trying to reassure him as John pushes forward to take hold of Sherlock’s wrist.)
JOHN: He’s my friend. Please, let me just check ...

Why should Sherlock tell Anderson this? His clever plan, fine. But why John's anguish? Is this not something John would remember? 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

October 22, 2015 12:54 pm  #35


Re: The third explanation

Hmm, the realisation of Sherlock´s plan involved persuading his friends that he is dead and done for good and John´s anguish was therefore a morbid, but effective "proof" that Sherlock´s plan was a success. (Also, the film-makers didn´t have another footage of Sherlock´s fall and so they included this, because John touching Sherlock and checking his pulse, stopped by the rubber-ball, was one of the important details of the plan).


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

October 22, 2015 1:18 pm  #36


Re: The third explanation

nakahara wrote:

But he imagines details of the case he knows nothing of? (He is not even aware that there was any case?) How is that possible? Is John a clairvoyant?

As I said, that case is not related to that part of the story. It's not needed, imho. 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

October 22, 2015 1:34 pm  #37


Re: The third explanation

I´m not sure I understand what you mean.

I simply wonder if it was really John who imagined this part of the scene. Because it was really not needed here if John wanted to meditate about Sherlock´s leaving him out of things:

=10pt=10pt=11pt=10pt=11pt=10pt=11pt=10pt=11pt=10pt=11pt=10ptSHERLOCK: Everyone’s a critic. Anyway, that’s not why I came.
ANDERSON: No?
SHERLOCK: No. I think you know why I’m here, Phillip. “How I Did It” by Jack the Ripper?
(Anderson looks at him wide-eyed, his mouth opening but no words coming out for a moment. He lowers his head.)
ANDERSON: Didn’t you think it was intriguing? (He looks up hopefully.)
SHERLOCK (standing up): Lurid. A case so sensational, you hoped I’d be interested. But you overdid it, Phillip – you and your little ‘fan club.’
(He starts to pace around him.)
ANDERSON: I just couldn’t live with myself, knowing that I’d driven you to ... (He stops.)
SHERLOCK: But you didn’t. You were always right. I wasn’t dead.
ANDERSON (staring up at him while he continues to pace): No. No, and everything’s okay now, isn’t it?
SHERLOCK: Yeah.
(Anderson laughs in a relieved way.)
SHERLOCK (stopping and looking down at him): Of course you’ve wasted police time, perverted the course of justice, risked distracting me from a massive terrorist assault that could have both destroyed Parliament and caused the death of hundreds of people.
ANDERSON (tearfully): Oh, God.
(He breaks down in tears, grabbing Sherlock and pulling him close.)
ANDERSON: Oh, God, I’m sorry, Sherlock. I’m so sorry.
(He hangs on to him and weeps against his coat. Looking uncomfortable, Sherlock tentatively pats him on the shoulder a couple of times.)
ANDERSON (abruptly stopping crying and looking round): Hang on.
(He stands up and walks over to his wall of papers.)
ANDERSON: That doesn’t make sense.
(Behind him Sherlock rolls his eyes and quietly sighs with an exasperated sound.)
ANDERSON: How could you be sure John would stand on that exact spot? I mean, what if he’d moved?
(Sherlock turns and quietly leaves the room.)
ANDERSON (oblivious to his departure): Hey – how did you do it all so quickly? What if the bike hadn’t hit him? (Suspiciously) And anyway, why are you telling me all this? (He chuckles.) If you’d pulled that off, I’m the last person you’d tell the truth ...
(Turning around, he trails off when he realises that he’s alone in the room. He stares for a moment, then chuckles. He switches between looking at all his paperwork and looking to where Sherlock had been standing.)
ANDERSON (quietly, sounding amused): Sherlock Holmes!
(He chuckles again, pointing to the spot where Sherlock had just been standing.)
ANDERSON (even softer, with a combination of amusement and exasperation): Sherlock!
(His chuckle slowly develops into laughter, and then into hysterical laughter as he starts tearing at the papers on the wall, ripping them off and whooping and giggling. Eventually he collapses in the corner, rising up onto his knees to continue clawing at the papers and still laughing hysterically until he slumps back down again.)

Last edited by nakahara (October 22, 2015 1:35 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

October 22, 2015 2:02 pm  #38


Re: The third explanation

Ah, ok, I see your point now. Need to think about it some more 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

October 22, 2015 2:02 pm  #39


Re: The third explanation

Actually, nakahara brings up a great point.  If John wasn't present for the "Jack the Ripper" case, how could he have included it in his fantasy?

(Sure, he could have been told about that case after the fact, but it would make little sense to include that extra bit in his fantasy.)

I personally see the "John's fantasy" thing as a wonderful, albeit incorrect, theory.  The fact that it seems to explain things better than the "real" version is just a happy coincidence.  And even if not correct, it is still very clever.

 

October 22, 2015 2:23 pm  #40


Re: The third explanation

Well, I just discussed this question with wellthengameover and she/he has a point: This is not the only time people seem to have information without us seeing them getting the information. 

For example what about John telling Mary at the end of HLV that Moriarty blew his brains out? I cannot remember anyone telling him that. 

So Sherlock may have told John that Moriarty shot himself but then he also may have told John about Anderson's Ripper trick. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

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