BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.
- Lola Red
- British Government
Offline 
- Registered: November 17, 2014
- Posts: 761
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
I think the problem that John has with Sherlock is that he puts him on a pedestal . Sherlock has been the one to save John, he has brought him back to life. For John, Sherlock is the undefeatable hero, he is the one he can lean on, the one he can trust to find a solution for everything. Most of the times that we see John reacting in a rather cruel way are moments when Sherlock “fails to deliver”. In TGG, he fails to show empathy with the victims and John reacts badly. In TRF, Sherlock fails to show a response to Mrs Hudson being shot (mainly because it is not true, we all have seen how he reacts if someone lays a hand on his landlady, but John does not know that) and John reacts badly. John can live with Sherlock’s apparent lack of emotional response is less charged situations, but when it becomes more extreme, he still wants Sherlock to respond “appropriately”. In TEH and TSOT Sherlock even fails to deliver the solution to a problem of his expertise and John reacts badly. John has trouble excepting that Sherlock will fail every now and then; he is just human after all. Again, in less charged situations, he deals with it, but when it becomes personal, he needs Sherlock to be perfect. He needs him to randomly know how to defuse a bomb, he needs him to solve the puzzle last minute. He cannot fail then, not when it matters (to John). John still has a kind of hero worship for Sherlock and whenever Sherlock fails to be that hero, he has trouble dealing with that. Sherlock is quite right when he shies away from being a hero, he is just a human, albeit one with extraordinary abilities. His abilities combined with the moment of John’s and Sherlock’s initial meeting have led to a dynamic that sometimes can be problematic, because it leaves little space for failure on Sherlock’s part in John’s mind.
Last edited by Lola Red (August 19, 2015 12:04 pm)
****************************************************************************************************************************************
We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.
- SusiGo
- The game is never over (moderator)
Offline
- From: Germany
- Registered: June 5, 2012
- Posts: 22,965
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
Good points, Lola. And this is why there is one comment of John's that I have never liked and never really understood: "You are not a puzzle-solver – you never have been. You’re a drama queen." Drama queen - fine. But as for the rest - it is cruel and deeply unfair towards Sherlock and completely contradicts everything John has said in the earlier series.
The only explanation for me is that Sholto must mean really a lot to him, far more than just having been his commanding officer, because else it would not justify this extreme choice of words. And while one may argue that it makes Sherlock solve the case, it still does not sit right with me.
------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes
"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)
“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)
- RavenMorganLeigh
- Official Blogger
Offline
- From: Seattle, WA, USA
- Registered: December 25, 2013
- Posts: 1,575
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
Lola Red wrote:
I think the problem that John has with Sherlock is that he puts him on a pedestal . Sherlock has been the one to save John, he has brought him back to life. For John, Sherlock is the undefeatable hero, he is the one he can lean on, the one he can trust to find a solution for everything. Most of the times that we see John reacting in a rather cruel way are moments when Sherlock “fails to deliver”. In TGG, he fails to show empathy with the victims and John reacts badly. In TRF, Sherlock fails to show a response to Mrs Hudson being shot (mainly because it is not true, we all have seen how he reacts if someone lays a hand on his landlady, but John does not know that) and John reacts badly. John can live with Sherlock’s apparent lack of emotional response is less charged situations, but when it becomes more extreme, he still wants Sherlock to respond “appropriately”. In TEH and TSOT Sherlock even fails to deliver the solution to a problem of his expertise and John reacts badly. John has trouble excepting that Sherlock will fail every now and then; he is just human after all. Again, in less charged situations, he deals with it, but when it becomes personal, he needs Sherlock to be perfect. He needs him to randomly know how to defuse a bomb, he needs him to solve the puzzle last minute. He cannot fail then, not when it matters (to John). John still has a kind of hero worship for Sherlock and whenever Sherlock fails to be that hero, he has trouble dealing with that. Sherlock is quite right when he shies away from being a hero, he is just a human, albeit one with extraordinary abilities. His abilities combined with the moment of John’s and Sherlock’s initial meeting have led to a dynamic that sometimes can be problematic, because it leaves little space for failure on Sherlock’s part in John’s mind.
Makes a LOT of sense.
- RavenMorganLeigh
- Official Blogger
Offline
- From: Seattle, WA, USA
- Registered: December 25, 2013
- Posts: 1,575
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
Good points, Lola. And this is why there is one comment of John's that I have never liked and never really understood: "You are not a puzzle-solver – you never have been. You’re a drama queen." Drama queen - fine. But as for the rest - it is cruel and deeply unfair towards Sherlock and completely contradicts everything John has said in the earlier series.
The only explanation for me is that Sholto must mean really a lot to him, far more than just having been his commanding officer, because else it would not justify this extreme choice of words. And while one may argue that it makes Sherlock solve the case, it still does not sit right with me.
This is reminds me of office managers who think they can get the best out of their employees by berating their employees.
- Vhanja
- One More Miracle
Offline
- From: Sandnes, Norway
- Registered: December 11, 2014
- Posts: 6,607
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
That line doesn't sit too well with me either. I think Sherlock is BOTH a drama queen and a puzzle solver.
Having that said, Sherlock doesn't seem to disagree. "But, to be fair, he's a bit of a drama queen too". So instead of contradicting John, he agrees with him - but includes John as well.
I don't know, it just seems a bit strange the entire scene. Perhaps it's one of those moments that was written more for comedic effect and isn't meant to be analysed too much?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
Team Hudders!
- RavenMorganLeigh
- Official Blogger
Offline
- From: Seattle, WA, USA
- Registered: December 25, 2013
- Posts: 1,575
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
That line doesn't sit too well with me either. I think Sherlock is BOTH a drama queen and a puzzle solver.
Having that said, Sherlock doesn't seem to disagree. "But, to be fair, he's a bit of a drama queen too". So instead of contradicting John, he agrees with him - but includes John as well.
I don't know, it just seems a bit strange the entire scene. Perhaps it's one of those moments that was written more for comedic effect and isn't meant to be analysed too much?
That whole scene kinda fell flat for me....
- SusiGo
- The game is never over (moderator)
Offline
- From: Germany
- Registered: June 5, 2012
- Posts: 22,965
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
For me the great thing about this scene is not the deduction or the comedy but the parallels and the tension between Sherlock and Sholto. For me this is what the whole scene is about, Sherlock equating himself with Sholto.
------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes
"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)
“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)
- RavenMorganLeigh
- Official Blogger
Offline
- From: Seattle, WA, USA
- Registered: December 25, 2013
- Posts: 1,575
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
For me the great thing about this scene is not the deduction or the comedy but the parallels and the tension between Sherlock and Sholto. For me this is what the whole scene is about, Sherlock equating himself with Sholto.
I love *that* part of it-- wasn't crazy about the rest. It's like they took a round about way to get there-- and I also thought that a lot of that scene was about making Mary look like the competent adult person in the room, while John and Sherlock were the kids that needed to be steered in the right direction.
Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (August 24, 2015 6:51 pm)
- nakahara
- Threatened Knighthood
Offline
- Registered: February 22, 2014
- Posts: 11,979
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
-----------------------------------
I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?
- •
Thread Starter- Vhanja
- One More Miracle
Offline
- From: Sandnes, Norway
- Registered: December 11, 2014
- Posts: 6,607
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
Wow, that meta is the worst case of John bashing I've seen.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
Team Hudders!
- nakahara
- Threatened Knighthood
Offline
- Registered: February 22, 2014
- Posts: 11,979
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
Wow, that meta is the worst case of John bashing I've seen.
Hmm, but some things mentioned in the meta sound disturbingly close to the truth - for example about John letting Sherlock shoot CAM because he simply needed someone to solve this situation for him...
-----------------------------------
I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?
- •
Thread Starter- Vhanja
- One More Miracle
Offline
- From: Sandnes, Norway
- Registered: December 11, 2014
- Posts: 6,607
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
To me, that sounds like putting more motives and thoughts into what John does (or doesn't do) than we know of. He allows CAM to do the flicking to protect Mary. It's emotional blackmail, just like Mrs Smallwood allowed the horrible licking for the same reason.
As for the shooting, John clearly didn't know what Sherlock was going to do. That's clear in his shocked response "Christ, Sherlock!"
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
Team Hudders!
- nakahara
- Threatened Knighthood
Offline
- Registered: February 22, 2014
- Posts: 11,979
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
Of course it´s putting motives into what John does, that´s the point of most metas, IMHO.
It´s true that John allows the flicking the way Lady Smallwood does. Still, I find it interesting that he says "Sherlock" right before as if he asking for Sherlock´s help and he also allows Sherlock to take his gun... doesn´t he really suspect that Sherlock might use it to shoot CAM?
-----------------------------------
I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?
- •
Thread Starter- Vhanja
- One More Miracle
Offline
- From: Sandnes, Norway
- Registered: December 11, 2014
- Posts: 6,607
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
He might suspect that Sherlock will use it to threaten CAM to stop. To me, the meta just seem to speculate to make John look as bad as possible.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
Team Hudders!
- nakahara
- Threatened Knighthood
Offline
- Registered: February 22, 2014
- Posts: 11,979
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
The author of the meta probably sees John like it, can´t help it.
The another interesting thing she mentions is John´s behaviour regarding Sholto. That part feels disturbingly accurate to me.
-----------------------------------
I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?
- •
Thread Starter- Vhanja
- One More Miracle
Offline
- From: Sandnes, Norway
- Registered: December 11, 2014
- Posts: 6,607
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
When it comes to the Sholto scene, John was very stressed out - and scared - because of Sholto possibly dying. I rate his anger in that scene similar to Sherlock's "Then what exactly is the point of you?" to Mrs Hudson. A reaction that out of context seems horrible, but becomes very understandable when you understand the stress and pain he was under.
You could say that in our real life, John should probably have apologized to Sherlock afterward when things calmed down. Just like Sherlock should have done to Mrs Hudson. But it seems it's not the kind of things these guys do.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
Team Hudders!
- RavenMorganLeigh
- Official Blogger
Offline
- From: Seattle, WA, USA
- Registered: December 25, 2013
- Posts: 1,575
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
The author of the meta probably sees John like it, can´t help it.
The another interesting thing she mentions is John´s behaviour regarding Sholto. That part feels disturbingly accurate to me.
I thought it was pretty spot on, and made some astute observations-- just because some don't like hearing anything unflattering about John, doesn't make the post either irrelevant, invalid or even cruel or unusually harsh.
- RavenMorganLeigh
- Official Blogger
Offline
- From: Seattle, WA, USA
- Registered: December 25, 2013
- Posts: 1,575
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
Of course it´s putting motives into what John does, that´s the point of most metas, IMHO.
It´s true that John allows the flicking the way Lady Smallwood does. Still, I find it interesting that he says "Sherlock" right before as if he asking for Sherlock´s help and he also allows Sherlock to take his gun... doesn´t he really suspect that Sherlock might use it to shoot CAM?
John seemed especially dim throughout that entire episode.
- Lola Red
- British Government
Offline
- Registered: November 17, 2014
- Posts: 761
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
I do not really like the wording that the writer of this meta chose, but she makes a few valid point I feel. How could it be that John did not realize that Sherlock was taking the gun, out of John’s pocket? Granted, Mycroft was descending on them with his helicopter and snipers, but you would expect a former solider to be very aware of where his weapon is at any given point. I do not see the face flicking or even Sholto as so problematic though. As I have written before I think that John suffers from hero-worship when it comes to Sherlock, so he just cannot imagine or accept that Sherlock might actually not have a plan, not have the solution ready. It makes their friendship problematic sometimes, because Sherlock is bound to disappoint him time and time again when it becomes clear that he is, after all, just human, but given how and when they met, it is understandable. Also Sherlock enjoys being hailed for his abilities, though he does not want to made into a hero-figure that he cannot live up to.
****************************************************************************************************************************************
We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.
- Dorothy83
- Mycroft's Contact
Offline
- Registered: April 7, 2015
- Posts: 412
Re: Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?
I agree that John has so much trust (and hero worship) for Sherlock that he seems to think Sherlock is this inhuman thing that can ALWAYS come up with a solution and sort everything out. 'You're Sherlock Holmes, you're as clever as it gets'. Remember?
He just thinks Sherlock as this superhuman and therefore this reading of him doesn't really allow for flaws or mistakes - John is wrong in this, but he doesn't do it on purpose, it's just so ingrained in him.
What is that meta person saying about Mycroft allowing Sherlock to go after Magnussen at Christmas??? Where does she see that?! Sherlock had to bloody drug him to escape with his laptop without him knowing!
