RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

That's a great point, about wanting fantasy from fic, not realism-- and knowing the difference between the two. I guess, in my case, ( and I do ship johnlock, but also Sherstrade, and Viclock) I like a bit of empowering realism with my fantasy. In my work, I see many women who have put their lives on hold--- for years-- over men that have made it clear that they have no intention of (a) ever leaving their wives, or ( b) returning the absolute devotion these women ( and sometimes Gay men) have for them.

Here's my other thing about the idea of a years long pining Sherlock, who only gets John after Mary has died or, John found out the baby's not his, or Mary leaves-- it makes Sherlock second choice, a default-- discarded, then taken up again because John can't be alone. When you factor in Mary's shooting Sherlock and very nearly killing him, and John forgiving that, staying with Mary, putting her first-- it's actually insulting.

That's why I think there's room for a happy ending story for Sherlock and Victor, or even Sherlock and Lestrade!😂

Just my opinion, and I could be on Crack! 😇

I don't see it that way. Because neither Sherlock nor John have been open towards one another about their (possible) feelings. Yes, they have both stated that they love each others, but as friends. If Sherlock had asked John openly for a romantic relationship, and John had turned him down to return to Mary, THEN I would actually agree with you and be on board with Sherlock and Victor (while crying my eyes out).

But that isn't what happend. In my head canon, Sherlock isn't the second choice. He is the first one, but John never realises, or dare go through with, his feelings. After all, Sherlock made it painfully clear from day one that he was not interested in any kind of romantic relationship. 
 

Last edited by Vhanja (August 1, 2015 10:37 pm)

Maybe I should specify "an exceptionally intelligent" (Sherlock´s level) people? 

Moriarty - a psychopath
Adler - a catty, untrustworthy criminal
Magnussen - an utter sleazy trash
Mary - something of a villain
Mycroft - cynical misanthropist
Sherlock´s mother - not normal (according to Mary)

Vhanja wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

That's a great point, about wanting fantasy from fic, not realism-- and knowing the difference between the two. I guess, in my case, ( and I do ship johnlock, but also Sherstrade, and Viclock) I like a bit of empowering realism with my fantasy. In my work, I see many women who have put their lives on hold--- for years-- over men that have made it clear that they have no intention of (a) ever leaving their wives, or ( b) returning the absolute devotion these women ( and sometimes Gay men) have for them.

Here's my other thing about the idea of a years long pining Sherlock, who only gets John after Mary has died or, John found out the baby's not his, or Mary leaves-- it makes Sherlock second choice, a default-- discarded, then taken up again because John can't be alone. When you factor in Mary's shooting Sherlock and very nearly killing him, and John forgiving that, staying with Mary, putting her first-- it's actually insulting.

That's why I think there's room for a happy ending story for Sherlock and Victor, or even Sherlock and Lestrade!😂

Just my opinion, and I could be on Crack! 😇

I don't see it that way. Because neither Sherlock nor John have been open towards one another about their (possible) feelings. Yes, they have both stated that they love each others, but as friends. If Sherlock had asked John openly for a romantic relationship, and John had turned him down to return to Mary, THEN I would actually agree with you and be on board with Sherlock and Victor (while crying my eyes out).

But that isn't what happend. In my head canon, Sherlock isn't the second choice. He is the first one, but John never realises, or dare go through with, his feelings. After all, Sherlock made it painfully clear from day one that he was not interested in any kind of romantic relationship. 
 

 
I don't really "blame" Sherlock for politely warding off John's (Fanon) advances, when (1) it's well-established that Sherlock knows nothing about relationships, and (2) he was being sensible by not up and jumping into bed with the new flatmate, that he'd only met the day before! Three Continents John Watson should have tried harder, he's the one with all the experience!😉

On the other hand, John has consistently told everyone, "I'm not gay!"

With Victor, we have a backstory ( in Canon) where he and Sherlock went off on holiday together, were friends in college-- Sherlock remembers Victor with fondness.

nakahara wrote:

On the other hand, Sherlock´s antagonists must be by definition depicted both as intelligent and awful, because it would be boring, if a man of Sherlock´s intelligence would stand against weak adversaries who would not be his match, so I don´t want to nitpick much. Still, I would really like if Moftiss toned that "intelligence is destructive" message down a bit....

OK, we were very off topic, sorry for that, Dorothy. 

 
Actually, this is where they could break that trope-- bringing in Victor, and make him Sherlock's intellectual match AND a good guy! (Or at least, we fanfic writers can!)

Vhanja wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I don't really "blame" Sherlock for politely warding off John's (Fanon) advances, when (1) it's well-established that Sherlock knows nothing about relationships, and (2) he was being sensible by not up and jumping into bed with the new flatmate, that he'd only met the day before! Three Continents John Watson should have tried harder, he's the one with all the experience!😉

On the other hand, John has consistently told everyone, "I'm not gay!"

With Victor, we have a backstory ( in Canon) where he and Sherlock went off on holiday together, were friends in college-- Sherlock remembers Victor with fondness.

I've never seen that scene as John making an advance on Sherlock. 

What I see are two idiots who both have their own issues when it comes to emotions, and that is the root cause of about 95% of all their quarrels and banter. None of them have ever told the other that they have any romantic interest in the other, and thus no one has been turned down and become a second choice. 

John is Sherlock's friend now. I think it's clear from the tarmac scene that if the two of them were to part ways for good, Sherlock would have remembered John with fondness as well.

I'm sure that Sherlock would remember John with fondness-- but, by the end of the tarmac scene-- it's ambiguous as to whether John would remember Sherlock in the same way. And, that's the point. 

I agree with Vhanja - Sherlock would be a second choice if John had seen him as interested romantically and still chosen Mary instead of him.
But - because of their inability to actually talk about their feelings, like Vhanja says - they never actually opened that can of worms.
But as things stand, I almost feel like Mary is the second choice, since John only found her when he thought he'd lost Sherlock - before that no other person took prevalence in his life other than Sherlock, and it could be argued that had Sherlock not disappeared John would have never had the time or the inclination, or even the 'freedom', since Sherlock always interfered with his romantic endeavours, to pursue a relationship with her.

So really Mary has to thank Sherlock for disappearing - if she now has John Watson as a husband :/

He wasn't eloquent at all. Then again, he's always been rubbish with that sort of thing. So has Sherlock. 

And good point - I agree with you about Mary being the second choice. It took Sherlock to disappear from his life for John to be able to hold a steady relationship with someone else.

I find it a bit sad to see this much negativity about John on a Sherlock board, but everybody is of course entitled to whatever opinion they might have.

I personally love BBC John, and I love Martin Freeman's portrayal of him. Not because he is perfect. On the contrary - his flaws doesn't make me dislike him, they make me like him even more. Just as I do with Sherlock himself. If BBC John had only been this well-educated, noble, kind, brave and smiling army doctor, I fear he would have become quite flat and boring very soon.

Vhanja wrote:

I find it a bit sad to see this much negativity about John on a Sherlock board, but everybody is of course entitled to whatever opinion they might have.

I personally love BBC John, and I love Martin Freeman's portrayal of him. Not because he is perfect. On the contrary - his flaws doesn't make me dislike him, they make me like him even more. Just as I do with Sherlock himself. If BBC John had only been this well-educated, noble, kind, brave and smiling army doctor, I fear he would have become quite flat and boring very soon.

If mentioning character´s flaws equalled dislike of the character, then Sherlock would be a character most hated by fans. I can´t count the times he was called an asshole, prick or stupid fool, they are as numerous as stars in the sky or waves in the sea... and yet I doubt all those people who call him names actually hate him. It is possible to dislike some aspects of a character, but to like the character itself.

As for John, I can´t comprehend what´s wrong with admitting that people more suitable for Sherlock than him may exist (for example, Victor). We all know John and Sherlock will always be an item at the end anyway, not Sherlock and Victor. John also is the character most favoured by fans - so far as fanfictions go, he is always described as perfect, while Sherlock usually ends as a dumb one. Even the authors of the show seem to favor him, since onscreen geniuses fight to death over the love of "ordinary" John, going as far as to shoot each other so that they can have John.... and all of this then makes an impression that these people (especially Sherlock) have an unhealthy one-sided obssession about John...

A bit of another love-interests in Sherlock´s life would at least stir things up a bit and make John less sure that he can take Sherlock for granted.... maybe he would actually start to fight for Sherlock´s love finally... 
 

nakahara wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

I find it a bit sad to see this much negativity about John on a Sherlock board, but everybody is of course entitled to whatever opinion they might have.

I personally love BBC John, and I love Martin Freeman's portrayal of him. Not because he is perfect. On the contrary - his flaws doesn't make me dislike him, they make me like him even more. Just as I do with Sherlock himself. If BBC John had only been this well-educated, noble, kind, brave and smiling army doctor, I fear he would have become quite flat and boring very soon.

If mentioning character´s flaws equalled dislike of the character, then Sherlock would be a character most hated by fans. I can´t count the times he was called an asshole, prick or stupid fool, they are as numerous as stars in the sky or waves in the sea... and yet I doubt all those people who call him names actually hate him. It is possible to dislike some aspects of a character, but to like the character itself.

As for John, I can´t comprehend what´s wrong with admitting that people more suitable for Sherlock than him may exist (for example, Victor). We all know John and Sherlock will always be an item at the end anyway, not Sherlock and Victor. John also is the character most favoured by fans - so far as fanfictions go, he is always described as perfect, while Sherlock usually ends as a dumb one. Even the authors of the show seem to favor him, since onscreen geniuses fight to death over the love of "ordinary" John, going as far as to shoot each other so that they can have John.... and all of this then makes an impression that these people (especially Sherlock) have an unhealthy one-sided obssession about John...

A bit of another love-interests in Sherlock´s life would at least stir things up a bit and make John less sure that he can take Sherlock for granted.... maybe he would actually start to fight for Sherlock´s love finally... 
 

I think that's also another example of that anti-intellecualism... that tendency to favor John, and the "John Watson can do no wrong" tendency in Fandom makes it very hard to have a conversation about the show, and nearly impossible to decribe John objectively:Most of the Fandom seems to view John's character through rose-colored lenses, while Sherlock , indeed, is often seen as Bad, the Jerk, the Savant, yadda, yadda...

I also wonder if John (in Fandom) hasn't become a bit of a Mary Sue? Mary Sues, in Fanfic typically get everything they want, everyone wants them, if they behaved badly, it's excused as "cute" or "sexy, they're better than every other character on the show, but they are often also "romantically victimized" for sympathy--- I think this might go a long way towards explaining why John is "allowed" to have other love interests--- but Sherlock is not, he's supposed to pine endlessley for John, in what i suspect is perpetual attonement for (a) saying he was married to his work, (b) sometimes behaving badly towards John in the series, even if it was really boys doing tit-for-tat, and (c) The Fall/leaving John for two years-- even if it saved John's, Mrs. Hudson's and Lestrade's lives. 

Just call me queen of the run-on sentence...   I'd love to see Sherlock with Victor, partly because it could be a neat way to shake up that paradigm! Why SHOULDN'T Sherlock have someone who loves him, puts him first, and appreciates him? 

As John is married-- he really can't do that anymore.