BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » "You were enjoying it"

Vhanja · May 15, 2015 12:45 pm

That dialogue bit surprised me when I first saw it. Granted, Mycroft and Sherlock love their (rather childish) passive-aggressive banter, but I think it's quite clear that Mycroft cares a great deal about his little brother.

So where did that line come from? Do you think Mycroft thought Sherlock had such a beating coming for him, and purpousely waited to do something?

And, perhaps maybe an even more interesting question - what would make Sherlock believe he did?

Yitzock · May 15, 2015 4:32 pm

I suppose it's possible, but at least to some extent I think Mycroft was just saying that because, as you said, he likes to pick on Sherlock. Mycroft probably couldn't do anything right away, had to wait for the right moment to strike, and just said that. Or maybe he did think Sherlock deserved it to some extent, and even though he couldn't help him right away, could have held off for a few extra moments. I kind of doubt that though.

SusiGo · May 15, 2015 4:39 pm

I do not understand this part either. My idea is that it could be an in-joke because my first thought was "Benedict, your Khan is showing." He is very un-Sherlock-like in this moment and the way his face is lit and the way he is cocking his head indeed remind me of STID.

Vhanja · May 15, 2015 6:41 pm

Yitzock - what is it you're refering to that Mycroft was saying?

SusiGo - Yes, his Khan is definitly showing in that scene.

Yitzock · May 15, 2015 6:52 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Yitzock - what is it you're refering to that Mycroft was saying?

Sorry, I made a mistake. I thought there was something he said that made Sherlock say "You were enjoying it," but I don't remember what it is. I think when I first started writing I thought we were talking about something Mycroft said, then I realized we weren't.

Redux: The two of them like to pick on each other, so Sherlock's comment likely was an insinuation about his brother, which may or may not be true. Mycroft probably couldn't do anything right away upon his infiltration. He may or may not have waited longer because he thought Sherlock needed the beatig. He could have held off longer than he needed to, but that seems improbable to me.

nakahara · May 15, 2015 6:56 pm

I believe both brothers are just picking on each other classicaly after their reunion: Mycroft tells Sherlock that his "holiday is over", as if being involved in a fight with criminal organisation, being imprisoned and tortured was some pleasant repast. Sherlock retaliates by stating that Mycroft enjoyed seeing him beaten.

I don´t think it even in the realm of possibility that Mycroft deliberately left Sherlock be beaten because he thought his brother deserved a beating. Deserved a beating for what? What did Sherlock do to him to earn such scorn?

Last edited by nakahara (May 15, 2015 6:58 pm)

Vhanja · May 15, 2015 7:14 pm

I don't think so either. I don't think Mycroft delayed on purpose. So what surprises me the most with this scene is Sherlock even mentioning it. To me, implying that his brother was enjoying watching him being tortured goes quite a few steps beyond the normal bickering and bantering the two of them do. And Sherlock doesn't seem to be joking at all, his tone is very different from what it usually is when he picks on Mycroft.

And that is why I started wondering what Mycroft could have done to make Sherlock believe that he was actually "enjoying it".

Yitzock · May 15, 2015 7:20 pm

Hmm...maybe he though Mycroft was enjoying it because of his coldness during the process of faking his death? In the flalshback, Mycroft answers the phone by coldly asking "Is it done?" We also know that he doesn't think caring is an advantage and looks down upon the fact that Sherlock cares for people more than he did before, especially John. Sherlock could have thought for these reasons that Mycroft was very hostile towards him, even thoug he did help him?
Just one guess as to what could have prompted that.

NatureNoHumansNo · May 15, 2015 9:33 pm

My feeling is that there's something very dark in the Holmes brother's past . As Mycroft said in the Reichenbach Fall: " Too much history between us, John. Old scores, resentments." ... My feelings is even that Mycroft messed up hugely and always feels uncomfortable with it. ( that's even what I imagine when Moffat mentions "the past biting back" about season 4).
I think that's why the teasing between the two is always ambiguous.

Yitzock · May 15, 2015 9:35 pm

Interesting idea! I can see how that could have happened, since we don't know everything about the past that the two had and because of Mycroft's position, we don't know what he's been forced to do in that position or what he had to do to get there. Maybe he did something that affected Sherlock badly in the process.

nakahara · May 15, 2015 9:51 pm

When you stop listening to the words and just pay attention to the actual action happening during Sherlock´s accusation, you will realise that he was getting a maximal possible care from Mycroft at that moment: a careful shaving from a proffesional barber, posh and comfortable luxurious suit, Anthea personally bringing his Belstaff to Sherlock and helping him to put it on... Mycroft even prepared an entire file on John knowing that Sherlock would demand it.... and I quite believe that a careful medical examination and treatment from best experts preceded the shaving scene.

In light of these actions that mirror Mycroft´s deep concern for the well-being of his brother I´m still convinced Mycroft would never deliberately let some gorilla torturer beat his brother up, if he could avoid it. So if something bad happened between them, it´s probably some past thing really rather than Mycroft´s conduct during TEH.

SusiGo · May 15, 2015 9:54 pm

Well said, nakahara. And we know from the beginning that there is some old resentment between the brothers but it probably has nothing to do with the Serbian adventure.

Yitzock · May 15, 2015 10:31 pm

Yes, I'm sure anything would have started quite a while before that, though that doesn't mean that the "Serbian adventure" didn't bring old feelings to the surface, at least to some extent, even if that incident was not being specifically referred to with the remarks.

Vhanja · May 16, 2015 10:16 am

Oh, yes, in case I wasn't clear: When I started this thread, I was refering to something Mycroft may (or may not) have done in the past, years before we even meet them in the show.

As you state, nakahara, Mycroft shows nothing but care for Sherlock in that scene. And even though he can be condescending in general, he always cares for his little brother. That is what makes me even more curious as to where such a statement would come from.

ukaunz · May 16, 2015 10:20 am

It's like that conversation in ASiP about who was the one who upset Mummy... Apparently Moftiss were originally going to have some back-story about Sherlock deducing that his father had an affair, which tears his family apart, but they decide not to go there after all. I wonder if we'll ever learn more about the Holmes brothers' childhoods...

Vhanja · May 16, 2015 10:29 am

I have a hunch that goes something like this:

Mycroft, being the elder brother, taught little Sherlock about "caring is not an advantage". He was the one encouraging and fostering the "sosiopath". Not to mention always belittling Sherlock for being an idiot. Mycroft was both smarter than Sherlock and also better at being cold and distant from his own emotions, probably teasing Sherlock constantly for this.

I can imagine this was what started the growth of the resentment. Sherlock striving to be what he could not, and Mycroft always belittling him for it. Mycroft had the power, the influence, the money, the intellect, the distant coldness.. and combined with an everlasting condescending attitude towards his little brother who could never be good enough, but always had to endure the Big Brother attitude and bossing around.

I feel that all of Sherlock's petty passive-agressivness towards Mycroft comes from this.

Yitzock · May 16, 2015 2:11 pm

I think so, too. Even though to some extent Sherlock strived for Mycroft's example of coldness and not caring, he still did not like the way his brother treated him. They still do tease each other in sometimes less harmful ways, but there are times where Sherlock's jabs do seem to be trying to fight back against something much more hurtful.

Vhanja · May 16, 2015 3:06 pm

It does. I can also see that Sherlock is still fishing for Mycroft's approval or praise sometimes, which I find quite endearing. And tells a lot about how he is still, and always will be, the little brother.

Last edited by Vhanja (May 16, 2015 3:06 pm)

Yitzock · May 16, 2015 3:13 pm

Yeah, the little brother wanting his big brother to be proud of him. I like to imagine them growing up and deducing things, trying to beat each other at it. Like when they deduce the hat ("It's been an age.") for old time's sake.
Their relationship is definitely not simple. But then, is anyone's on this show?

kornmuhme · July 13, 2015 9:21 pm

Couldn't it be possible that Sherlock BELIEVES his brother had enjoyed watching him being tortured? I completely agree with you, I also think Mycroft would never ever allow anybody to do his little brother harm on purpose while he himself is sitting next to it and enjoying it! But it tells us a lot about Sherlock that he obviously considers his brother ENJOYING it possible ...