BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mycroft Holmes

RavenMorganLeigh · September 1, 2015 8:39 pm

dioscureantwins wrote:
Gladly, thank you for asking.

After the thrilling opening sequences of TEH my disillusion with Sherlock began with the scene in the restaurant, further intensified with the scene in the train car and became final in TSoT when he was so slow in the Bainbridge case.

My disillusion with Mycroft began when Mary shot Sherlock. Mycroft's first mission in life is to ensure his little brother's safety and yet John is allowed to date and marry and bring into Sherlock;s inner circle a trained killer? Hardly likely imho.

The whole of S3 feels like a different show to me. Far less suave and funny and eloquent. Both Sherlock and Mycroft are incredibly slow and Mycroft completely lacks that tight hint of danger. It feels like they dumbed down their own characters to serve the fans and create a greater public for themselves. They managed to do the letter but I'd rather been spared this improbable mishmash.

I agree.

dioscureantwins · September 1, 2015 8:42 pm

True. But in doing so he nearly lost Sherlock. Mycroft, if he was aware of Mary's true nature (whatever it may be) ought to have foreseen that, and prevented it. He knows all too well that warning Sherlock of certain premises as the same as inviting him to walk in there.

Lola Red · September 1, 2015 8:50 pm

Yes, but Mycroft has risked Sherlock’s life before to eliminate a threat (Moriarty). So maybe, CAM, too was worth the risk in his eyes. After all, both CAM and Moriarty have been after Mycroft. Sherlock might be Mycroft’s weak spot, but he is also one of his most effective weapons.

dioscureantwins · September 1, 2015 8:55 pm

As I see it Moriarty only came on Mycroft's radar once Sherlock alerted him to Moriarty's existence. That had already happened before Moriarty decided to think really big.

Lola Red · September 1, 2015 9:00 pm

Well, Sherlock has his first contact with Moriarty in TGG, involving a case that Mycroft is pressing on him. In SIB we hear ther Moriarty is "deserate" for Mycroft's attention. In the ruining of "Bond Air", he is directely targetting Mycroft.

Lola Red · September 1, 2015 9:04 pm

When it comes to Mycroft and Moriarty, I hava a little pet theory that I just posted in another thread:

Lola Red wrote:
In a reversal of the great red herring of ASIP, it turns out that Mycroft “the most dangerous man you’ve ever met” is Moriarty, or at least part of it (“There’s others out there just like you, except you’re just a man and they’re so much more than that”). The Moriarty (born Richard Brook and a former actor “that’s what you do when you sell a big lie; you wrap it up in the truth to make it more palatable.”)we got to meet was a criminal looking to join Mycroft (“Yes, he’s been in touch. Seems desperate for my attention, which I’m sure can be arranged.”)But in the end, Moriarty went rouge and Mycroft send Sherlock after him. CAM, on the other hand, was a controlled part of Mycroft’s network (“You may consider him under my protection.” “If you go against Magnussen, then you will find yourself going against me.” “He’s a business-man, that’s all, and occasionally useful to us. A necessary evil”). Maybe CAM wanted too much by placing Mycroft on the receiving end of a pressure point chain(“For those who understand these things, Mycroft Holmes is the most powerful man in the country. Well, apart from me”). Maybe it was because Sherlock got hurt while hunting CAM. Whatever the reason, I believe that on Christmas Mycroft was sending Sherlock after CAM (letting his laptop lay around, basically tell Sherlock that he knows there is something in the punch and CAM’s comment of “Mycroft has been looking for this opportunity for a long time. He’ll be a very, very proud big brother”). So after Sherlock once more took out a criminal for him, Mycroft arranges the Moriarty gif (much in the same way as Sherlock’s mass SMS in ASIP) and the fake exile.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 1, 2015 9:27 pm

Lola Red wrote:
When it comes to Mycroft and Moriarty, I hava a little pet theory that I just posted in another thread:
Lola Red wrote:
In a reversal of the great red herring of ASIP, it turns out that Mycroft “the most dangerous man you’ve ever met” is Moriarty, or at least part of it (“There’s others out there just like you, except you’re just a man and they’re so much more than that”). The Moriarty (born Richard Brook and a former actor “that’s what you do when you sell a big lie; you wrap it up in the truth to make it more palatable.”)we got to meet was a criminal looking to join Mycroft (“Yes, he’s been in touch. Seems desperate for my attention, which I’m sure can be arranged.”)But in the end, Moriarty went rouge and Mycroft send Sherlock after him. CAM, on the other hand, was a controlled part of Mycroft’s network (“You may consider him under my protection.” “If you go against Magnussen, then you will find yourself going against me.” “He’s a business-man, that’s all, and occasionally useful to us. A necessary evil”). Maybe CAM wanted too much by placing Mycroft on the receiving end of a pressure point chain(“For those who understand these things, Mycroft Holmes is the most powerful man in the country. Well, apart from me”). Maybe it was because Sherlock got hurt while hunting CAM. Whatever the reason, I believe that on Christmas Mycroft was sending Sherlock after CAM (letting his laptop lay around, basically tell Sherlock that he knows there is something in the punch and CAM’s comment of “Mycroft has been looking for this opportunity for a long time. He’ll be a very, very proud big brother”). So after Sherlock once more took out a criminal for him, Mycroft arranges the Moriarty gif (much in the same way as Sherlock’s mass SMS in ASIP) and the fake exile.

(runs screaming) AH~! AHHHHH!

Pretty cool theory... but, dang!!!!

SusiGo · September 1, 2015 9:31 pm

Interesting theory. Real food for thought.

dioscureantwins · September 2, 2015 6:17 pm

Lola Red wrote:
Well, Sherlock has his first contact with Moriarty in TGG, involving a case that Mycroft is pressing on him. In SIB we hear ther Moriarty is "deserate" for Mycroft's attention. In the ruining of "Bond Air", he is directely targetting Mycroft.

True. However Sherlock thinks Moriarty wants the plans and sought Sherlock to get them. But Moriarty deems them boring and throws them into the pool. All he wants is Sherlock, he isn't interested in Mycroft at all.

dioscureantwins · September 2, 2015 6:21 pm

Lola Red wrote:
When it comes to Mycroft and Moriarty, I hava a little pet theory that I just posted in another thread:
Lola Red wrote:
In a reversal of the great red herring of ASIP, it turns out that Mycroft “the most dangerous man you’ve ever met” is Moriarty, or at least part of it (“There’s others out there just like you, except you’re just a man and they’re so much more than that”). The Moriarty (born Richard Brook and a former actor “that’s what you do when you sell a big lie; you wrap it up in the truth to make it more palatable.”)we got to meet was a criminal looking to join Mycroft (“Yes, he’s been in touch. Seems desperate for my attention, which I’m sure can be arranged.”)But in the end, Moriarty went rouge and Mycroft send Sherlock after him. CAM, on the other hand, was a controlled part of Mycroft’s network (“You may consider him under my protection.” “If you go against Magnussen, then you will find yourself going against me.” “He’s a business-man, that’s all, and occasionally useful to us. A necessary evil”). Maybe CAM wanted too much by placing Mycroft on the receiving end of a pressure point chain(“For those who understand these things, Mycroft Holmes is the most powerful man in the country. Well, apart from me”). Maybe it was because Sherlock got hurt while hunting CAM. Whatever the reason, I believe that on Christmas Mycroft was sending Sherlock after CAM (letting his laptop lay around, basically tell Sherlock that he knows there is something in the punch and CAM’s comment of “Mycroft has been looking for this opportunity for a long time. He’ll be a very, very proud big brother”). So after Sherlock once more took out a criminal for him, Mycroft arranges the Moriarty gif (much in the same way as Sherlock’s mass SMS in ASIP) and the fake exile.

A very interesting theory. I offer you my apologies in advance but please, I AM rather in awe of Mycroft and I think if he wanted to get rid of people he'd go about it in a less obvious manner. I openly confess to being no fan of S3, though a HUGE fan of S1 and S2 and being a bit disappointed with Moffat and Gatiss for their offering. They can make it up to me with S4.

SusiGo · September 3, 2015 1:00 pm

I just happened to find this quote I had not heard before:

"There’s definitely a world in which one day Mycroft will turn out to be the ‘baddie’, as it were, because he represents the pragmatic arm of government and sometimes its pragmatism is terrifying."

Mark Gatiss, Livraria Cultura of Brazil, March 2014

dioscureantwins · September 3, 2015 1:19 pm

Oh, that's lovely in all its subtlety. Very Mycroft-like. For who gets to determine who the baddie is? Mostly it's the party that got beaten.

Dorothy83 · September 3, 2015 1:46 pm

Also, I don't think Mycroft will ever turn into a baddie in the sense that he will harm his brother. Anyone else, yes, but not Sherlock.

SusiGo · September 3, 2015 1:56 pm

Neither do I. But he might be compromised, under pressure by people who want to harm Sherlock.

dioscureantwins · September 3, 2015 2:07 pm

I'm convinced Mycroft can be utterly ruthles and would has no qualms about starting a minor war if it serves British interests. But he'd rather chop off his right arm than hurt his little brother.

Lola Red · September 4, 2015 2:28 pm

Very interesting quote from Mark. It might very well be that Mycroft has “good” intentions with assembling Britain’s greatest criminal minds around himself. It would be a very effective way to control them and even use them (see CAM) in his interest.

And I think using Sherlock, his great weakness, as his greatest weapon is quite smart. Especially if he does it by apparently betraying Sherlock (Moriarty) or forbidding him to go after someone (CAM). True, he risks Sherlock getting hurt (beginning TEH) but if we assume that Mycroft is behind the GIF than he has always bailed Sherlock out at the last moment.

But for another point: Tell me if I am thinking wrong, but CAM’s pressure point chain would only work if at least the ultimate receiver of that pressure (Mycroft) would know about the whole chain, or not? In other words, CAM would have to tell Mycroft (if indeed for some reasons he would not have found out himself) about Mary. To own Mycroft, CAM had to inform Mycroft of the fact that he could take him down and how. Was Lady Smallwood just a little preview for Mycroft to sow him what he was capable off?

Dorothy83 · September 4, 2015 2:34 pm

dioscureantwins wrote:
I'm convinced Mycroft can be utterly ruthles and would has no qualms about starting a minor war if it serves British interests. But he'd rather chop off his right arm than hurt his little brother.

I agree. When it comes to brotherly fights or picking on him or any other childish stuff Mycroft is more than happy to, but he would never actually allow Sherlock to be seriously harmed physically - and emotionally, Mycroft would only allow it if the circumstances doesn't leave room for alternative solutions, and then he would make absolutely sure to look after him (even though he is a bit overbearing and perhaps doesn't go about it the 'right' way - but who exactly knows what the right way is in these cases, especially if it's a family member we're talking about?). I mean look how worried he was about him when he thought he was suffering after Irene's death....

Dorothy83 · September 4, 2015 2:39 pm

Lola Red wrote:
Tell me if I am thinking wrong, but CAM’s pressure point chain would only work if at least the ultimate receiver of that pressure (Mycroft) would know about the whole chain, or not? In other words, CAM would have to tell Mycroft (if indeed for some reasons he would not have found out himself) about Mary. To own Mycroft, CAM had to inform Mycroft of the fact that he could take him down and how. Was Lady Smallwood just a little preview for Mycroft to sow him what he was capable off?

Very interesting point! I never thought about it that way. My first thought was - he only needs to inform Mycroft if and when he needs something from him. But CAM always needs something from Mycroft, doesn't he? He needs Mycroft to protect him and give him leeway? So I'm wondering, why was Mycroft protecting CAM already at the beginning of the episode, when Sherlock and we didn't yet know about the pressure point chain being in place? Is that just a plot hole?

Lola Red · September 4, 2015 5:02 pm

As far as I can see, there are basically two options. Either Mycroft was already feeling the pressure (“You may consider him under my protection” –“I consider you under his thumb”) or CAM is working for Mycroft (“If you go against Magnussen, then you will find yourself going against me” “He never causes too much damage on anyone important. He is far too intelligent for that. He’s a business-man, that’s all, and occasionally useful to us”). The last quote become especially interesting when you remember that the last known victim of CAM seems to have been Lady Smallwood’s husband…

SusiGo · September 4, 2015 7:41 pm

Interesting thoughts. I have always wondered about these quotes. Mycroft seems to be closely involved with Magnussen, maybe too close if you look at the things Magnussen did. But what would it mean if Magnussen worked for Mycroft? There would be no pressure chain. He probably would have told Mycroft that Mary shot Sherlock. And what about Sherlock's visit to Appledore?