BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mycroft Holmes

lil · June 23, 2015 2:58 pm

Well it works both ways as usual.
If Sherlock and Mycroft know the guy working with or behind Moriarty is still around , and posting on the blog etc ,they could have done the video themselves because they are ready to force him out and take him down.
Or it could be Moriarty#2 making Sherlock and Mycroft look like incompetent idiots.
My hope is Sherlock and Mycroft are on the same side because M theory seems to set them against each other , something I hope doesn't happen.
Two Moriartys V two Holmes is more fun imo.

Whisky · June 23, 2015 4:07 pm

NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
Whisky wrote:
If Moriarty is alive, I shall turn absolutely monstrous. Well, tbh, simply that we're discussing the possibility, is already hurting my TRF feels. I'm totally with you there, tonnaree
Why? Because Moriarty wouldn't have been really suicidal?
Because, if he "just" tricked everyone, it doesn't change things a great amount.

I just cannot see what the true meaning behind the struggle Sherlock vs. Moriarty is if both just end up in the same place there were before - not dead, continuing the game til judgement day.
Also, it would be hard to believe any other death that would ever happen on the show is really final. For example Mary's.

I still think Moriarty is dead, but he might have planted that video. With someone. Don't know. Could be a brother. But then again, the series always places little hints to pick up, and Moriarty never said anything that hinted that way - that's confusing.

I agree with you, Lola Red... Mycroft's involvement in things needs some explanation at some point. I hope it will be in the next series.

SusiGo · June 23, 2015 4:34 pm

This is very OT but just because you mention it, Whisky and Tonnaree - I just thought of the end of "Romeo and Juliet".
Romeo thinks Juliet is dead and kills himself although she is alive. Waking up she realises he has killed himself and kills herself, too. No one ever said that faking her death invalidates their feelings. I know, I know, in the end they are both dead, not alive, but still. To Sherlock Moriarty's faked death would have felt real and prompted him to act accordingly, say goodbye to John, etc.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 23, 2015 4:35 pm)

Whisky · June 23, 2015 5:50 pm

I see where you coming from, but I don't really make the connection.
If Moriarty faked his death too, they're just playing a game without meaning. Romeo and Juliets deaths mean everything, because they loose everything. But John, Lestrade, Mrs. Hudson... how will they feel if they realise Sherlock's faked death wasn't even "necessary"? What use was Sherlock's hunting after Moriarty's network, if Moriarty was still alive? He could just work on a new network. All pain that Sherlock's and Moriarty's game would have caused would be meaningless... not as in "hasn't happened" but worse: they caused pain, but there is no gain.
I'm not sorry for Sherlock when I watch TRF. The feels are for what he and Moriarty do to others. In that little game of theirs, the pain of the others is just collateral damage, and with Moriarty alive, their pain has been for nothing.
(that was a long OT, I'm sorry...)

ahm, topic? topic... ah, Mycroft. I wonder what Mycroft feels about it We mostly agree he loves his brother? And Sherlock spends two years undercover nearly getting killed? Mycroft must have worried. And now Moriarty is alive and it's been in vain? I could add Mycroft to the list above. Sherlock risked his life, and nothing came from it? Don't think Mycroft likes it.
Also, I wonder about Sherlock's parents, about his whole family. With this christmas scene, we can see they are actually interested in Sherlock and Mycrofts wellbeing. So, what did they know about Sherlock's work? About Mycroft not keeping Sherlock back?

NatureNoHumansNo · June 23, 2015 6:11 pm

I'm not bothered by a meaningless game between Holmes and Moriarty. We know from the beginning it's a game between two manchild that get bored.

Whisky · June 23, 2015 6:17 pm

I actually like it that Mycroft's actions have this aura of usefulness. Even if I don't know if his actions are truly effective because we are seldom told.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 23, 2015 8:06 pm

Whisky wrote:
Also, it would be hard to believe any other death that would ever happen on the show is really final. For example Mary's.

So far, Mary is still alive, and we have no indication, in the show, she's bound to die. So, you speculate we could doubt about something you speculate might happen

Whisky wrote:
I actually like it that Mycroft's actions have this aura of usefulness. Even if I don't know if his actions are truly effective because we are seldom told.

We have several hints that Mycroft take care of "real problems" and he mostly considers Sherlock like a man-child : the line about elections in Korea, the scene in Buckingham Palace, the line about Sherlock having the brain to be a philosopher and choosing to be a detective...

SusiGo · June 23, 2015 8:15 pm

It is a game, Lestrade, and not one I’m willing to play. (TRF)

I think by TRF Sherlock does not regard it as a game anymore even if he still uses the metaphor when calling Moriarty to the roof.

As for Mycroft being the grown-up one and Sherlock the man-child - one might also see it the other way round. IN TEH we see how Sherlock has learned to be human while Mycroft still seems to be stuck in his not caring attitude.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 23, 2015 8:44 pm

I think, that, to Mycroft's opinion, not caring is the best way to act as a grown-up.

Vhanja · June 23, 2015 8:51 pm

I want to start by saying that Mycroft is the one character I find the most interesting after Sherlock and John. And I love his relationship with Sherlock, there is so much going on there.

I like this meta by Wellingtoongoose that deals with the two brothers:

http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/40248330269/the-holmes-brothers-equal-but-different

How Mycroft is the "Thinker" and Sherlock is the "Feeler". How Mycroft learned early on to suprress his feelings and deal with them on the inside. And tries to teach the same coping mechanism to his little brother.

Last edited by Vhanja (June 23, 2015 8:52 pm)

SusiGo · June 24, 2015 2:50 pm

Can I back for a moment to unsolved questions about Mycroft? At the end of ASiB we have another of those situations where Mycroft's omniscience seems to be compromised - the alleged death of Irene. I found this explanation which is an excerpt from M theory but can be read without knowing the whole meta. I find it quite convincing:

http://tykobrian.tumblr.com/post/90155671059/asip-mycroft-lies-about-irene-death

Lola Red · June 24, 2015 3:13 pm

I agree that Mycroft knows Irene is still alive. I am not so sure about his motivation though. Why would Mycroft Caringisnotanadvantage Holmes want his brother closer to John? If anything, we see Mycroft stumbling over his own weak spot for his baby brother time and time again. Why would he actively try to weaken Sherlock by taking his attachment to John even further?

NatureNoHumansNo · June 24, 2015 3:23 pm

I really think the show tells us Mycroft doesn't care at all about Watson. He barely keeps an eye on him during the hiatus, doesn't attend the wedding.

SusiGo · June 24, 2015 3:26 pm

I think Mycroft knows only too well that Sherlock is different from him, long before the Operation scene in TEH. And that there could be worse companions than an ex-soldier wiling to risk his life for Sherlock. And as I said, it is an excerpt from a much longer meta based on the idea that Mycroft is somehow under Moriarty's thumb. Hence the idea that Sherlock has to be protected.

But even if we do not take this into account, I just wanted to say that I am sure Mycroft knows about Irene. And the same simply has to apply to Mary, too.

Lola Red · June 24, 2015 3:44 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I think Mycroft knows only too well that Sherlock is different from him, long before the Operation scene in TEH. And that there could be worse companions than an ex-soldier wiling to risk his life for Sherlock. And as I said, it is an excerpt from a much longer meta based on the idea that Mycroft is somehow under Moriarty's thumb. Hence the idea that Sherlock has to be protected.

I agree with you that Mycroft knows that Sherlock is unable to keep sentiment out of his life, but I don’t think he would encourage it. That is especially true if he has to protect him against Moriarty, who once vowed to burn the heart out of Sherlock. Sherlock’s heart needs to be armoured, not opened.

SusiGo wrote:
But even if we do not take this into account, I just wanted to say that I am sure Mycroft knows about Irene. And the same simply has to apply to Mary, too.

I also think that Mycroft knows/knew about the two women, everything else would be very OOC for him

Lola Red · June 24, 2015 3:49 pm

NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
I really think the show tells us Mycroft doesn't care at all about Watson. He barely keeps an eye on him during the hiatus, doesn't attend the wedding.

I think Mycroft does not care about John personally, but he cares about him in his function at Sherlock’s side. He keeps a file on him during Sherlock’s absence and knows where John will spend the evening. I’d say surveillance grate three has never been lifted from Dr. Watson (which makes the Mary-oversight seem so unlikely)

SusiGo · June 24, 2015 4:02 pm

I agree, Lola. And as for the wedding - if Mycroft had attended Sherlock a) would not have been on his own in foreign territory the way he had to be and b) Mycroft would have met Mary, something the writers obviously did not want to happen.

RavenMorganLeigh · June 24, 2015 7:03 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Ok, mourning over and I can think a bit more clearly.

I don't think Mycroft falls into that mentor role either. Mycroft stands for the opposite of what Sherlock strives towards - being more human and more caring. If we were to follow the mentor pattern, it would actually be John who would die. He is Sherlock's moral compass, and it would be great struggle for him to keep humanize without John.

Not that I believe John wil die. Just that I don't think this show fits into the mentor pattern.

I could actually see them killing John and having Mary become the new "Watson". I don't want to ever see this, and if it ever happened, I think that would be the end for me-- but, yeah-- I could see that.

Mycroft: There's been a softening in the way Mycroft and Sherlock seem to deal with each other-- their relationship is shown in a much more sympathetic light in s3 than previous seasons. That can also be a precursor to a character dying off the show. It will be interesting if the one responsible for his death is... wait for it... Mary.

RavenMorganLeigh · June 24, 2015 7:15 pm

SusiGo wrote:
So do I. But I suspect that they will not show us an idyllic marriage where John solves cases with Sherlock while Mary looks after the baby. Or even worse, with Mrs Hudson looking after the baby while we get a crime-solving trio.
I get the impression that Mary's story is far from over. Which does not mean we do not get an interesting Mycroft story arc as well.

I agree. And digressing for just a moment-- I think this is ... patently unfair to Mary. I mean, here's this woman who is an ex-assasin, with all these mad combat/sniper/espionage skills who's supposed to have become "one of the good guys" and they turn her into a 1950's houewife?????? That's going to be her lot, after all of this? Seriously?

Mrs. Hudson being the assumed de-facto babysitter/nanny just irks me. We have this idea that single older women that just there for the purpose of caring for our kids, when Mrs. Hudson is getting on in years, she's not a parent, she has a bad hip-- is she really up to being the Nanny? Poor Mrs. Hudson.

And, no-- I do not want to see a Crime-Solving Trio.

What have they done to my show??????

Sigh/. More coffee is urgently needed. :-D

tonnaree · June 24, 2015 7:33 pm

"I could actually see them killing John and having Mary become the new "Watson". I don't want to ever see this, and if it ever happened, I think that would be the end for me-- but, yeah-- I could see that. "

NEVER EVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

There's some things I just have to put my foot down on.

Last edited by tonnaree (June 24, 2015 7:34 pm)