BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Things that only make sense if Johnlock is subtext

lil · February 15, 2015 10:29 pm

Discussions of the many small insinuations...is always amusing..but look at the whole.
Almost every major character and In every episode...there has been some kind of....idk insinuation? Is it just a 'gay joke ' every time...
When you weigh the evidence is it likely BBC and the writers wrote a series which makes a laugh out of the idea of Sherlock and John being a couple? Is the idea of that so outlandish and hilarious....that they repeat it so many times....and if so....thats maybe the wrong attitude from the audience...Shouldn't we be past that.
Maybe we are supposed to consider it seriously.
Queerbaiting.....maybe those accusers have a point?.....oh no!
Someone said it.......

Harriet · February 15, 2015 10:38 pm

SusiGo · February 16, 2015 7:50 am

"Look at the whole". True.

Lola Red · February 16, 2015 1:31 pm

So this is a “let-me-convince-you-of-Johnlock” thread. In that case I’m out. I don’t need to be convinced.

Enjoy the Johnlock-deliciousness ladies (and gentlemen?)

SusiGo · February 16, 2015 1:35 pm

I just commented on the observation that there is a difference between looking at individual things that may be explained without Johnlock and the overall impression some people may get.

Schmiezi · February 16, 2015 2:29 pm

I still feel this here is an interesting discussion. True Johnlock-deliciousness can be found here:
http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=4862

Lola Red · February 16, 2015 6:40 pm

Susi, I feel I have cause offence. If that is the case I apologize, that was not my intention. I felt that the applauding of “look at the whole” threw this thread into the realms of “let-me-convince-you-of-Johnlock”. I don’t have a problem with that, but I am as convinced as a Johnlock agnostic can be. But it seems I have misread the intention of your post. I hope we are ok.

SusiGo · February 16, 2015 6:51 pm

No offense taken.

It was just that lil wrote what I have been feeling for so long. I could not help myself to comment. Please stay in this thread.

Pav · February 16, 2015 10:01 pm

Which non-Johnlock explanations do you have for the mind palace scene when Mary shoots Sherlock dressed in her wedding dress? I'd love to hear your opinions.

Lola Red · February 16, 2015 10:52 pm

I (unintentionally) already did this one once in one of the Mary discussion threads. I think Mary’s appearances in the mind palace (the wedding dress and the dress she first met Sherlock in) show how hard it is for him to see her as a cold blooded assassin (in the black gear). He is, maybe even more so than John, not someone who trusts easily. But he trusted Mary over his own mind (“Liar”), so much so that he liked himself to her (and John’s) child. Than his childlike, unconditional trust gets shattered when Mary draws a gun and shoots him. That must have hurt beyond anything the bullet could have ever done to him. In his mind palace he tries to put it all together, the warm, welcoming, understanding woman he found at John’s side, the lovely bride that was so inclusive with him and the assassin who wounded him to very gravely.

Zatoichi · February 17, 2015 4:31 am

Yes, I think it is how his mind tries to process what´s happening in this moment.. Mary in her bridal gown represents the woman he trusted, whom he spoke for at her wedding, put above himself when he said that only now he can congratulate John for his choice of companion and included in his first and only vow.. the very same woman whose bullet just ripped a hole through him. I think bride!Mary firing her gun at him is the strongest visualization for the shock, bewilderment and pain this caused him you could find.

Later in the hospital he pictures Mary in her lovely dress together with "Liar" and her unreadable and slightly mocking face - I think this serves the same purpose, just a little less dramatic and influenced by pain and shock this time - to get all the contradicting information about her together and figure her out.

Liberty · February 17, 2015 8:33 am

Yes, the wedding was the point where he made his vow to the "three", so it's very significant in his relationship with Mary.

SusiGo · February 17, 2015 8:46 am

Another one. What about Moriarty-Sherlock's words in the mind palace: "Pain. Heartbreak. Loss. Death."
I really do not see how heartbreak should be related to Mary shooting him. And what about loss? This is Sherlock's mind speaking, so we can assume that all words apply to himself.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 17, 2015 8:52 am)

Lola Red · February 17, 2015 2:20 pm

Oh, good one. “Pain. Heartbreak. Loss. Death.” is the very thing that both Sherlock and Mycroft try to avoid (among other things), by keeping sentiment out of their lives. We see that side first when Irene Adler ‘dies’ in SIB “All lives end, all hearts are broken. Caring is not an advantage.”. Mycroft kind of comes back to it during the wedding reception “I warned you, don’t get involved….do you remember Blackbeard?”, warning him of the consequences of caring. Still, Sherlock seems ok enough during the whole wedding to me, but after he deduces that Mary is pregnant, he looks absolutely lost. As he says it: “You’re hardly gonna need me around now that you’ve got a real baby on the way”. The beginning of HLV seems to underline that statement, Sherlock has lost his place in John and Mary’s life. Additionally, when Mary pulls the trigger, he looses the woman he trusted and loved. So two of the things he is trying to avoid by not giving in to sentiment (and failing utterly at it) have already caught up with him before the bullet hits him, three if you see “Pain.” as emotional pain. “Pain.” as in physical pain and “Death.” are I think acutely accounted for by the shooting, but also by Sherlock’s unwillingness to deal with them on a more general level.

SusiGo · February 17, 2015 2:47 pm

Yes, I agree on loss (of his life with John, first due to Moriarty and now because of the marriage and pregnancy), pain (covering physical and emotional pain) and death. They may be explained this way.

However, I disagree with heartbreak. For someone like Sherlock this is a very strong word, a word he has probably reserved for very few situations in life. And it would be very unusual to think about a broken heart because your best friend has married and become a father. To be shot by the woman who he married might be a more plausible reason but to me scene is connected to the one before where Mary as a bride shoots him.

And there is one sentence with which I really do not agree: "Additionally, when Mary pulls the trigger, he looses the woman he trusted and loved." I really do not believe that Sherlock would ever use this word where Mary is concerned (or anyone else as for that). As far as I know, Sherlock only once in the whole series mentions loving another person and that is John.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 17, 2015 2:49 pm)

Lola Red · February 17, 2015 3:15 pm

Ok, ‘love’ was the wrong word to use. Lets say: really likes her on a deeper level, enough to trust her over his own mind after just knowing her for a very short time? I use ‘love’ rather freely, I ‘love’ every single one of my friends, but I get that other people might reserve that word for very specific purposes. Sherlock himself would probably use ‘sentiment’.

I still feel “Heartbreak.” can very well stem from first loosing his place in the lives of the man-he-connects-with-like-with-no-one-before and the woman-he-likes-so-much-he-trusts-her-over-his-own-mind-after-just-knowing-her-for-a-very-short-time and than having to see that the woman-he-likes-so-much-he-trusts-her-over-his-own-mind is not at all person she seemed to be, thereby loosing her. Sherlock has a total of five people (John, Molly, Mary, Lestrade and Mrs.Hudson) he cares about, eight if we count Mummy, Daddy and Mycroft, nine if we count Irene Adler. Loosing either one of them -or his place in their lives - I think would lead to something resembling heartbreak.

btw When exactly does Sherlock use “love” directed to John? I must have missed/filtered/deleted it. That would be very interesting in this whole discussion.

Vhanja · February 17, 2015 3:20 pm

In my view, the word "heartbreak" is what Sherlock experiences at the end of the wedding, as mentioned before in this thread. John starting his own family with a child on the way will mean a loss like nothing else, which can resemble heartbreak.

I do agree, though, that it is a strong word to use. And, again, using that word will lead to people speculating. It's another example of elements in the series that might be explained easily as friendship but still makes me wonder why on earth Moftiss keep adding ambiguity to the show.

It's not whether or not it can be explained as friendship or not that makes or breaks it for me. Most things can, it's just a matter of interpretation and perspective. My biggest question will always be - why keep adding ambiguity? Why keep chossing to use wordings, dialogue, scenes and angles that will only fuel the speculations instead of making choices that would lessen the ambiguity?

Schmiezi · February 17, 2015 3:29 pm

Lola Red wrote:
btw When exactly does Sherlock use “love” directed to John? I must have missed/filtered/deleted it. That would be very interesting in this whole discussion.

In his best man's speech: "today you sit between the woman you have made your wife and the man you have saved – in short, the two people who love you most in all this world."

(taken from here: http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/65379.html)

Last edited by Schmiezi (February 17, 2015 3:30 pm)

SusiGo · February 17, 2015 3:31 pm

Lola: In TSOT Sherlock says John is sitting between the two people who love him most in all this world.

Lola Red · February 17, 2015 3:43 pm

I just remembered, “today you sit between the woman you have made your wife and the man you have saved, in short the two people who love you most in this world.”, TSOT. If one sees ‘love’ only in the romantical sense than that would seem a solid one (though, as I said, I personally use ‘love’ in a much wider sense).

Edit: too late again, But I'll leave it for now. Thanks Susi and Schmiezi

Last edited by Lola Red (February 17, 2015 3:45 pm)