BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Things that only make sense if Johnlock is subtext

Vhanja · February 6, 2015 6:37 pm

If you care for someone, you have a heart. That doesn't have to include romantic feelings, I think.

Schmiezi · February 6, 2015 6:39 pm

SusiGo wrote:
mrshouse wrote:
I might have another one: what non-johnlock explanation could there be for Moriartys " I'll burn the heart out of you". Maybe it's just meant to be creepy and scary, but the possibilities of writing are endless if just to be threatening.
I do not think it is just meant to be creepy. Because they are discussing one of the big topics of the show - Sherlock suppressing/coping with/allowing emotions.

I must admit that I never saw this one as a hint for Johnlock. I always thought the heart was the symbol for Sherlock's feelings.

Schmiezi · February 6, 2015 6:40 pm

Cross post, Vhanja. I meant the same.

SusiGo · February 6, 2015 6:46 pm

If you want to take this scene as a hint, then it would refer to John's feelings more than Sherlock's. Because he tries to save Sherlock's life by sacrificing his own. And Moriarty says: "You have shown your hand."

Vhanja · February 6, 2015 7:10 pm

SusiGo wrote:
If you want to take this scene as a hint, then it would refer to John's feelings more than Sherlock's. Because he tries to save Sherlock's life by sacrificing his own. And Moriarty says: "You have shown your hand."

Yeah, I never understood that line from Moriarty.

Whisky · February 6, 2015 10:05 pm

I think in the tarmac scene, Sherlock has absolutely no idea what to say. He simply uses something that everybody would say as "goodbye", maybe even because he knows John would like something like that, and then just makes it into a very Sherlock-thing by saying something unexpected. Which is best anyway, I think, because that's exactly what John will miss most, Sherlock's non-fitting words at wrong times.
And I think Sherlock wants to say far more than just one thing, and I think the way John laughs, he understood most of them even with Sherlock going on about names.

If anything, Sherlock would only hurt John with saying that he loves him at that point, because the future isn't exactly safe for Sherlock. Saving John the trouble of another heart-ache, that's more Sherlock. His intention of saving John the pain could be interpreted as johnlockproof... but I don't really think it.

Last edited by Whisky (February 6, 2015 10:06 pm)

Whisky · February 6, 2015 10:08 pm

The problem I have with the "you have shown your hand" is that it's Moriarty who is saying it. He's kind of a romantic, if a twisted evil one... he would want to see it that way.

I find Irene far more convincing for Johnlock-subtext then Moriarty.

Schmiezi · February 7, 2015 4:42 pm

Whisky wrote:
I think in the tarmac scene, Sherlock has absolutely no idea what to say.

Do you mean that after saying, "John, there’s something ... I should say; I-I’ve meant to say always and then never have. Since it’s unlikely we’ll ever meet again, I might as well say it now." he does not have an idea of what he wanted to say next?

Last edited by Schmiezi (February 7, 2015 4:42 pm)

SusiGo · February 7, 2015 4:53 pm

Did we already have the classic from ASiP?

JOHN: You don’t have a girlfriend, then?
SHERLOCK Girlfriend? No, not really my area.

JOHN: So you’ve got a boyfriend then?
SHERLOCK: No.

lil · February 7, 2015 10:24 pm

Oviously Sherlock and John are best friends and love each other, but there are occasions when the people that know them best hint at something more, and some quite explicitly.
Mrs H . What was the point of Mrs H telling John her story ?
If it was not foreshadowing or assimilating her relationship with her husband , to that of John , Mary @ Sherlock .Further it took a fair bit of screen time and told us nothing we couldn't easily deduce.From the beginning she has shipped them as a couple in an overt manner.
Really , is she just to be written off as a batty, old, gossipy woman ?
And why did she comfort Sherlock so and look @him so broken heartedly at the wedding.
Mycroft - Who seems to see the ending from one look , has insuated it from the very beginning and many times since. Why?
Moriarty. As mentioned here several times , based all his plans on SH caring for John.
Jeanette , Irene and even Mary all compare Johns feelings for Sherlock to those of a sexually attracted partner.
'You make SH a great boyfriend'
'look at us both'
'oh Sherlock did you think WE were the first'
Ella - John theres the something you haven't said.Say it now.
What?
And of course SH himself..how many times the immediate 'John' to any convo or Q ? Or even just showing off....the... I've never begged for anything in my life to....begging John ...how many times now....@the airport....
What also has SH never said ?
lets not mention the deciding to die for each other , or together , or kill for the other...I suppose thats just love.
But the rest - 'desperately unspoken' no?

Personally IDK on Johnlock , it's always been around@ fanfics go back to the last century , it's not new. I have always been dubious , yet SO3 did look to me as if it was based around Sherlocks apparant unrequited love and attraction to John.

If the elephant in the room is not Johnlock.....what is it?

lil · February 7, 2015 10:40 pm

@ finally . Why would MF , who one assumes knows his character better than us , act the scene with Janine as So Jealous....it had to be cut ..., along with the whole gay bar stagnite scene b.t.w.

Harriet · February 7, 2015 10:42 pm

To the point as always, lil

SusiGo · February 7, 2015 10:43 pm

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. ...

nakahara · February 7, 2015 10:46 pm

Very good points, lil.

KeepersPrice · February 7, 2015 11:05 pm

Oh yes, the non-stop accumulated examples here lend a lot weight to the Johnlock argument and are hard to explain away.

My personal favorite is when Magnussen couldn't find a really good pressure point for Sherlock until, "But look how you care about John Watson". And then proceeds to call him "your damsel in distress". I suppose we could say, that by feminizing John here, Magnussen may only be trying to goad them by calling out their relationship as a love match. But the sentence before, "But look how you care about John Watson" is delivered with almost a sense of wonder at how powerful that motivation is for Sherlock. Just makes me believe wholeheartedly and unambiguously that there can be no other for Sherlock but John and that it's more than just love - it's 'in love' - and we are being shown it. Just my 2 cents.

Whisky · February 8, 2015 4:12 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
Whisky wrote:
I think in the tarmac scene, Sherlock has absolutely no idea what to say.

Do you mean that after saying, "John, there’s something ... I should say; I-I’ve meant to say always and then never have. Since it’s unlikely we’ll ever meet again, I might as well say it now." he does not have an idea of what he wanted to say next?

No, I mean, in general he doesn't know what to say. Maybe he had an vague idea to end that sentence differently than he did, but in general, I don't think he can narrow everything that is left to say between John and him down to "something I've meant to say", so he says something else.
What would he have said? What is it that he *always* wanted to say?
Always would imply all their time together, and I think whatever was happening between them took a great deal of development. Even if Sherlock wanted to say "love you", well, I'm pretty sure it's not something he always wanted to say, because even in series 2 I am not sure he has wrapped his head around the concept of love... I just don't think he's there yet.
I think he wanted to say a thank you, that's it.

Schmiezi · February 8, 2015 4:24 pm

Whisky wrote:
I think he wanted to say a thank you, that's it.

That's an interesting thought, Whisky. Now that I think of it, I cannot remember him saying it once.

Harriet · February 8, 2015 4:35 pm

But would it be so difficult?

mrshouse · February 8, 2015 4:36 pm

Has anybody considered this one: the camera angle, when in HLV Sherlock produces the ring box and proposes to the camera? If you want to show that John is shocked and repelled by how far Sherlock is willing to go than you have about a dozen different angles and cuts you could choose. They chose the one that looks as the ring was meant for John and at the same time a face completely taken aback. Like he thinks " wait a second there, not for me?".

SusiGo · February 8, 2015 4:50 pm

But he said already thank you in his best man speech, I think. And if he had wanted to say it again, he could have done so.
IMO (provided the writers to not tease us) it must be something Sherlock would like to say but cannot say because he thinks he is going to die. Why not say thank you at this point? Thank you for your friendship? It would be absolutely fine.
But to say "I love you/" and then leave John behind and disappear forever would be terrible. And I think Sherlock does not want to hurt John even more than he already has. It is basically the only thing left to say.

P.S. Well, Sherlock may not have said "thank you" but he said a lot of other things expressing this in his best man speech.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 8, 2015 4:52 pm)