I do think John threatening Sherlock is out of order.  I suppose it has to be excused by his state of mind, but it's pretty horrible.   It does frustrate me in that scene that both John and Mary are medical people and both seem to ignore how desperately ill and in danger Sherlock is (until the paramedics arrive).  They even let him struggle up the stairs on his own. 
 

Liberty wrote:

I do think John threatening Sherlock is out of order.  I suppose it has to be excused by his state of mind, but it's pretty horrible.   It does frustrate me in that scene that both John and Mary are medical people and both seem to ignore how desperately ill and in danger Sherlock is (until the paramedics arrive).  They even let him struggle up the stairs on his own. 
 

I may have said this before, but what really bothers me about that scene is that John is sort of like an abusive parent or spouse; he's just kinda ...well... trigger happy with the threatening of physical violence. Makes one wonder about the urge to punch Sherlock in the face, being constant subext in John's head. I mean, he doesn't even have to think about it, threatening to punch Sherlock is just automatic by now....

There's a school of Fanthought that posits the idea that John really doesn't get ( or doesn't want to get) that Sherlock is human, fallible, has feelings that can be hurt, that's he's not superhuman.... so, Maybe John (a) thinks punching and threatening Sherlock is the only way to get through to him, or (b) since Sherlock "doesn't feel", he's a convienent and safe person to work out his anger issues on.... I suspect it's a combination of the two....

It's actually one of the reservations I have about Johnlock; you can't have a healthy relationship where one partner so easily threatens physical violence, or even succumbs to it. ( Because in relationships, these things tend to escalate, not diminish over time...)
 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 28, 2015 8:08 pm)

SusiGo wrote:

I do not see John as potentially abusive. In ASiB we see that Sherlock has to attack him first before he punches him back. And as some of us have said, in HLV John is in an exceptionally stressful situation. I do not like him threatening Sherlock, not at all, but I do not think that this means he would turn violent anytime. And I really cannot imagine Moftiss conceiving their relationship - Johnlock or not - as abusive. 

I don't think Mofftiss see "abuse" in any of the violence-- it's only for comedic or dramatic value, I think... honestly, I don't think they'd get what "abusive" is, if it walked up and punched them in the face.

And I'm not acusing John of being abusive, though I am saying that, in real life-- I'd wonder. (Which is where the Johnlock factor comes in. ) On the other hand, John punching people unadvisedly has gotten him into trouble before...

In that scene, though-- when John turns on Sherlock, you see Sherlock move backwards and he looks..well a little scared, and it's clear that he has no doubt that John could concievably punch him, no matter how badly wounded Sherlock is. (And, yeah we John kind of a pass on this because...dang. He's just gotten gut-punched, metaphorically speaking)

Maybe it's just weird directing? 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 28, 2015 8:32 pm)

SusiGo wrote:

Maybe. And I think there is another thing: throughout series 3 we, the viewers, see how Sherlock has changed but I think John does not realise this. We never see Sherlock telling him about the snipers, he does not know about Sherlock being tortured in Serbia, he assumes Sherlock has slept with Janine to get to Magnussen, he does not know Mary has threatened Sherlock in hospital, he does not know about Redbeard, etc. 
We should keep in mind that series 3 is told from Sherlock's POV and that John is not in on many things. 

Agreed. You know that plot device ( in lots of shows, including Supernatural, and the X-Files) where you have two partners and they relate a story to a third party and the facts of the story are consistent, but the characterizations-- how each partner sees the other -- are wildly skewed? Lots of projection, assumptions about how one party sees the other come out? And alot of those views of  each other are pretty ridiculous and exaggerated? Maybe that's what we're getting, here. 

Maybe, in series three, we the audience are the third party who can see more objectively. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 28, 2015 9:24 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

.... The show gives us no idea what Harry was like; how do we know that John didn't distance himself from her because she's Lesbian, and her drinking comes from that? 
....

Thanks for that! For every time I read in fanfic "John can't be homophobic, after all, his sister is a lesbian" I think "yeah, a sister he doesn't talk to..." Of course, he shouldn't be homophobic, but people aren't always as they should be, are they?

SusiGo wrote:

.....
You could turn this around and say Sherlock returns injured after dismantling a criminal and network and is thrown to the floor by his best friend after we have seen what his back looks like.  ...

Well, we have seen his back (and we have also seen him lying on these injuries in the barber's chair, and whereas I don't know what the forced grin after the first moments of Greg's embrace is supposed to convey, it does not say "Oh shit, I need to take another ... (insert painkiller of your choice) and probably change the bandages") but John hasn't. He sees Sherlock a) spoiling his proposal to Mary and b) making a silly joke about his moustache instead of apologizing or explaining. The only excuse I can find for Sherlock is that the proposal-spoiling would not have been quite so spectacular if John would have given the "waiter" the courtesy of looking at him when talking to him...

SusiGo wrote:

.....He is shot by the wife of said best friend when trying to help her.....  

Sherlock is shot by Mary because he doesn't take her seriously and refuses to believe that actions have consequences. Lesson for life: When somebody points a gun at you and says: "if you take one more step I swear I will kill you" - you freeze! You most definitely don't try to make a step towards them. Sherlock is actually very lucky that Mary shifts her aim from center mass to the left - the bullet placement may or may not be the best imaginable (from a survival point of view) but it's definitely better there than in the heart.


 

SusiGo wrote:

...Either both are victims or none of them is. But I refuse to see poor John as being the sole victim. 

I (mostly) agree with that. Most of the time I think John and Sherlock really deserve each other, temper tantrums and laptop-pirating and all... (the exception being the underground scene, when I thought John would probably be better off walking away from Sherlock.)
 

Hmmm, kind of different because Jason Bourne is the hero of the movie, whereas Mary is very much the antagonist/villian of the piece here.

Lola Red wrote:

Kittyhawk wrote:

Lola Red wrote:

.....Of cause Sherlock putting the main responsibility for Mary’s actions on John seems unfair, ....

What do you mean by that? I can't remember Sherlock saying anything like "Mary behaves like she does because of you". As far as I remember it's basically: "Mary is as she is and you love her and married her because you are as you are." So all's for the best in the best of all possible worlds ;-)

(And I suppose that none of the people here who hate Mary have routed for Jason Bourne in his movies?)

 

I did not rewatch, but I think the line from John was something along the lines of "Why is she like this, she was not supposed to be like this." to which Sherlock answers "Because you chose her", which can be read as Sherlock (indirectely) making John responsible for Mary's nature and actions.
 

I wonder if Mofftiss made an error in writing that line: I never thought Sherlock was blaming John for Mary's actions, or behavior-- because the rest of the statement (paraphrasing) is that John surrounds himself with and is attracted to "dangerous" , not-normal situations and people. And then we find out more about Mrs. Hudson's past as an exotic dancer working for her murderous husband's drug cartel.

What this tells me is that even though Mrs. Hudson appears to be the stereotype of a harmless, doting, elderly spinster, there's a lot more there below the surface-- that sense of "like me" underneath that John picked up, even when he didn't know her. It's probably why he felt so comfortable with her, why he chose to live with Sherlock a day after meeting him, etc, . 

So, back to Mary: I think what Sherlock was really telling John was that on some level, John picked up, "like me"-- that "dangerous" vibe. And, to be fair-- we don't even know what John and Mary's dating life was like-- she could have made him go hangliding or do other adrenaline-fueling activities. We don't know. There may have been a sense of a matching spirit (love of danger) in their trysts. 

But when you use a phrase like, "You chose her-- ", I think it makes people defensive on behalf of John, the character--because it sounds too much like, "It's your own fault you're in this mess, " or "You asked for it, " or any other statement used for Victim-Blaming. And the knee-jerk reaction is much like John's, "WHY IS EVERYTHING MY FAULT????" 

And that's not what I think Sherlock was saying; but he might have been saying that John, at some point in his life, needs to come to terms with the fact that he, unlike what he thinks of as "normal" people-- likes and needs a spot of danger in his life. 

LolaRed, you remember correctly (no need to rewatch, it's all here http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/68242.html) and from the grammatical point of view you are right - the phrasing makes it look like John was the cause and Mary's behaviour the effect.

But that's so nonsensical that it didn't even register with me, I've always seen it like RavenMorganLeigh - John likes danger and surrounds himself with dangerous people, which Sherlock is pointing out (given that he's internally bleeding at the moment I can forgive him less than perfect phrasing).

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

Hmmm, kind of different because Jason Bourne is the hero of the movie, whereas Mary is very much the antagonist/villian of the piece here.

Are you saying the point of view changes the facts (reminds me of "History is always written by the winners" from Braveheart)? Or that viewers have to follow the writer/director's point of view and are not allowed to think on their own? Of course, the show is named Sherlock, which makes him the protagonist. But I don't see Mary as the antagonist, and most certainly not as the villain (that's CAM).

BTW, about John threatening Sherlock ("Sherlock, one more word and you will not need morphine.") - that's the third time he tries to get Sherlock to stay out of what is supposed to be a discussion with his wife (who gets to say exactly one word: "Why?" in the whole scene). So I'm inclined to forgive him. Less forgiveable is not noticing Sherlock's state...
 

Last edited by Kittyhawk (June 1, 2015 6:01 pm)

I think Sherlock's and Mary's comment are more or less the same, and I react equally to both of them.

I don't get the scene to make sense, though, when I think about it. It seems Sherlock is in a rush to have John and Mary solve this so that they can get on with catching Magnussen. However, it takes months before they actually do that. So why the rush?

I understand the importance of letting John know about Mary immediately, but not the rush in John and Mary sorting it out. Why didn't Sherlock go back to the hospital after the confrontation in the empty hallway for instance? If Mary had been a threat by then, he was certainly in no condition to help.

Once the cat was out of the bag, the issue about Mary lying to John was an issue between the two of them. It wasn't any of Sherlock's business at all, actually. So he could safely have returned to the hospital before driving himself to a dangerous collapse, while John and Mary sortet it out on their own. 

Of course, it's not a good thing of John to threaten Sherlock in his state. But I think both of them knew it wasn't a serious threat, especially considering how Sherlock just kept on talking like John hadn't even said anything, and John never made any move to put his threat into action.

Last edited by Vhanja (May 30, 2015 9:27 am)

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I wonder if Mofftiss made an error in writing that line: I never thought Sherlock was blaming John for Mary's actions, or behavior-- because the rest of the statement (paraphrasing) is that John surrounds himself with and is attracted to "dangerous" , not-normal situations and people. And then we find out more about Mrs. Hudson's past as an exotic dancer working for her murderous husband's drug cartel.

What this tells me is that even though Mrs. Hudson appears to be the stereotype of a harmless, doting, elderly spinster, there's a lot more there below the surface-- that sense of "like me" underneath that John picked up, even when he didn't know her. It's probably why he felt so comfortable with her, why he chose to live with Sherlock a day after meeting him, etc, . 

So, back to Mary: I think what Sherlock was really telling John was that on some level, John picked up, "like me"-- that "dangerous" vibe. And, to be fair-- we don't even know what John and Mary's dating life was like-- she could have made him go hangliding or do other adrenaline-fueling activities. We don't know. There may have been a sense of a matching spirit (love of danger) in their trysts. 

But when you use a phrase like, "You chose her-- ", I think it makes people defensive on behalf of John, the character--because it sounds too much like, "It's your own fault you're in this mess, " or "You asked for it, " or any other statement used for Victim-Blaming. And the knee-jerk reaction is much like John's, "WHY IS EVERYTHING MY FAULT????" 

And that's not what I think Sherlock was saying; but he might have been saying that John, at some point in his life, needs to come to terms with the fact that he, unlike what he thinks of as "normal" people-- likes and needs a spot of danger in his life. 

I do not believe Sherlock is truly blaming John for Mary’s actions, he just tries to control the situation. In that situation, John is the harmless one. He might get angry, threaten people, he might even attack him if pushed to the extremes. But John is not a natural killer, even in the army he was a doctor, not a sniper. Mary, on the other hand, is/was an assassin. And in that specific situation, I believe she is an extremely unstable assassin. If John loses control, he’ll kick a chair, scream, maybe punch someone. If Mary loses control, she has a loaded gun on her. So Sherlock basically has to stand between John and Mary. But he does not lie, John’s addiction to danger is a big theme in the whole episode and has been a part of his character arc ever since ASIP. It is part of why he always returns to Sherlock’s side, even in TEH, CAM’s people got hold of him just outside 221 - he was already returning to Sherlock. Because Sherlock, Mycroft, Moriarty and now Mary are such extreme characters it is easy to see John as “the everyman”, but he is everything but, it just seems that everyone (including John) keeps forgetting that.