BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock and John

Lola Red · March 31, 2015 8:41 pm

I do love that video. John overreacting and his I’m-so-done-faces are gold

Plus, I think that makes it clear that Sherlock is a considerable source of .. done-ness(?) for John. Though I still think most of the time he wouldn’t want it any other way.

Vhanja · March 31, 2015 8:42 pm

Sherlock is the source of a lot of John's done-ness. Lol, excellent wording!

But, yes, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I feel that balances itself out by S2. But S1 can be painful to watch sometimes because of it.

nakahara · March 31, 2015 9:05 pm

I´m sure John absolutely loves it when Sherlock "does" him.

(God, that sounds filthy!)

Vhanja · March 31, 2015 9:09 pm

This is my thread, and I am ok with filthy.

I think it varies. I think sometimes John doesn't really mind, and sometimes he really does. It depends on what it is.

ukaunz · March 31, 2015 9:25 pm

I just have to jump in and say I love that video. thanks for posting it!

Vhanja · March 31, 2015 9:38 pm

Thanks! Love that video myself, the more I watch it. Poor John!

Last edited by Vhanja (March 31, 2015 9:39 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · April 3, 2015 9:17 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Interestingly, Lola Red, a great portion of the examples you mention are from ASiP, the one episode where we see exactly that. And when it was mentioned earlier that John shuts down when Sherlock tries to open up, I see the exact opposite, never clearer than in ASiB. That is the episode where John really makes an effort to be a really good friend (his girlfriend broke up with him because of it, he missed a planned Christmas with Harry and he tried constantly to be there and be supportive for Sherlock), but he got nothing in return. That was the one episode over all where Sherlock shut him out. It's a bit painful to watch, I have to admit.

I'm not necessarily talking about domestic bliss, this isn't a show about cooking and watching tv. And the kind of enjoyment we see in ASiP isn't about that either - it's about them enjoying themselves on a case. (And, yes, the ashtray scene is the same type of scene in ASiB, good example).

But if you go through the series and count the number of scenes in each category, there are so few in no 4 compared to no 3 and the rest, that it's amazing how we can even see these guys as close as we do. To be honest, the only thing that makes me reluctant to rewatch the series is the constant annoyance. Because it's not about friendly bickering, it's John being - constantly - put out, annoyed, offended or fed up with Sherlock. All the time. It's not two mates having a go at each other, it's one mate annoying the living he** out of the other, on a daily basis.

Just found this thread-- and I have to wholeheartedly agree with you-- based on the show; not Fanon. Breaks my heart. :-)

RavenMorganLeigh · April 3, 2015 9:22 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Just a little thing about the Christmas party - Sherlock lashes out the very moment Molly mentions that Sherlock complained to her about John leaving him to visit his family. Before he has even played the violin to make Mrs Hudson happy but when Molly reveals that he was in some way affected by John going away over the holidays, he gets vindictive towards her. Which is a very Sherlock-y proof of how much he wants to have John with him.

Another thing-- if you've ever been pursued by an unwanted suitor--relentlessly-- and have had enough, you might get how Sherlock felt when Molly appeared at the party. It's not kind to Molly, and Sherlock behaved horribly, but I got that Molly had just stepped on Sherlock's last nerve. (As lovely as Molly is...)

ukaunz · April 4, 2015 6:47 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
Just a little thing about the Christmas party - Sherlock lashes out the very moment Molly mentions that Sherlock complained to her about John leaving him to visit his family. Before he has even played the violin to make Mrs Hudson happy but when Molly reveals that he was in some way affected by John going away over the holidays, he gets vindictive towards her. Which is a very Sherlock-y proof of how much he wants to have John with him.
Another thing-- if you've ever been pursued by an unwanted suitor--relentlessly-- and have had enough, you might get how Sherlock felt when Molly appeared at the party. It's not kind to Molly, and Sherlock behaved horribly, but I got that Molly had just stepped on Sherlock's last nerve. (As lovely as Molly is...)

I thought the point of Sherlock's deduction of her outfit and gift was that he didn't realise she had been pursuing him. It's only when he opens the card that he realises the gift was for him. He thought it was all for someone else up until that point.

Vhanja · May 26, 2015 6:46 am

Wasn't sure where to put this, since it's been mentioned in several other threads. But since this was my own thread, I thought it put it here.

So THANK you. It made my day that someone else also see this, how John is being accused of things being his fault when they were really out of his control. Not only out of control, but where he was the victim. Very close to victim-blaming, this.

http://cant-deny-the-johnlock-ship.tumblr.com/post/119879231814/waitingforgarridebs-firstdrafted

(Only disagree with one thing in that link - there is nothing nowhere that implies John suffered from "moderate alcohol abuse" after TRF?!)

But apart from that, I wholeheartedly agree. The scenes mentioned are slightly painful to watch, because John is the one suffering because of other people's choices. And is being repeatedly told it's his own fault. That is really, really beyond a Bit Not Good.

SusiGo · May 26, 2015 7:58 am

Well, I think there is quite some speculation going on. We do not know anything about his past with Harry so we cannot know if he is feeling any guilt for her behaviour and alcoholism or not. Same goes for the drinking you mentioned. I suppose the author alludes to the DVD scene in MHR but, honestly, you do not have to be an alcoholic to have a drink when watching a video of your late best friend.

I think the problem is not so much that John is a victim but that both he and Sherlock suffer from not talking to each other and being in the dark about so many things.
You could turn this around and say Sherlock returns injured after dismantling a criminal and network and is thrown to the floor by his best friend after we have seen what his back looks like. He is shot by the wife of said best friend when trying to help her. He tries to persuade John to remain with the woman who nearly killed because he a) wants to placate her and save John from further danger or b) because he thinks John will be happy with her and the child after all. He then is sent to his certain death after having saved said best friend and his wife and their unborn child from Magnussen.

And as for the thing about sitting in the pool changing room - John willingly joins Sherlock in his cases, he thrives on danger, and as a soldier he should know that danger is imminent when working together with Sherlock.

Sorry, but these arguments do not work for me. Either both are victims or none of them is. But I refuse to see poor John as being the sole victim.

Liberty · May 26, 2015 8:44 am

Vhanja, I don't think John actually believes he's at fault in those scenes. I think he's accusing Sherlock of implying that it's his fault, when it isn't. (I know you didn't say he felt he was at fault, but I thought maybe the article was implying that he tends to blame himself). I think it's a bit of a leap to create the backstory with Harry - we just don't know. As John was probably away at medical school/army/etc, I don't know if he'd have been around to pull her out of bars.

ukaunz wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
Just a little thing about the Christmas party - Sherlock lashes out the very moment Molly mentions that Sherlock complained to her about John leaving him to visit his family. Before he has even played the violin to make Mrs Hudson happy but when Molly reveals that he was in some way affected by John going away over the holidays, he gets vindictive towards her. Which is a very Sherlock-y proof of how much he wants to have John with him.
Another thing-- if you've ever been pursued by an unwanted suitor--relentlessly-- and have had enough, you might get how Sherlock felt when Molly appeared at the party. It's not kind to Molly, and Sherlock behaved horribly, but I got that Molly had just stepped on Sherlock's last nerve. (As lovely as Molly is...)

I thought the point of Sherlock's deduction of her outfit and gift was that he didn't realise she had been pursuing him. It's only when he opens the card that he realises the gift was for him. He thought it was all for someone else up until that point.

Yes, I think he made a mistake. It's interesting - just before this Sherlock has been looking at John's website. John has said that people like Sherlock in the hat, and Sherlock claims that they don't. "What people?". Right at the end it turns out that Irene has been texting Sherlock telling him that she reads the blog and that he looks good in the hat. So Irene is on his mind at that point. I think that distracts him when he talks to Molly, and he misses the (obvious to other people!) signs that she's attracted to him. His comments all seem to refer to Irene too - she's serious about him because she's giving him a gift (he's just had a text from Irene to say that she's thinking of giving him a Christmas present), the red lipstick, small lips and breasts. He's genuinely apologetic when he realises his mistake.

It also leads nicely into him checking if Irene's interest is faked or not later (when he takes her pulse).

Last edited by Liberty (May 26, 2015 8:50 am)

Vhanja · May 26, 2015 11:15 am

Oh, I think the article makes a whole bunch of assumptions. I am not really interested in those, as we know nothing of Harry or anything else. My point was, as you say, Liberty, that Sherlock is the one heaping the blame onto John when John is severly hurt by those around him. He does it when he returns, and he does it during Mary and John's "domestic". Something I find quite horrible, to be honest.

Liberty · May 26, 2015 11:41 am

I think that in the first case, he's just stating fact - trying to explain why he couldn't get in touch with John. It's not that John did anything wrong, but that he'd give the game away (as would Mrs Hudson and LeStrade, presumably - John isn't singled out). During the domestic, I think it's completely unwarranted and unfair (and possibly untrue), but I don't think it's meant to be a criticism there either - more Sherlock trying to choose the right words to resolve the situation.

SusiGo · May 26, 2015 11:51 am

I think we sometimes tend to forget who are the real villains in the show. People blame Sherlock for actions caused by Moriarty and again for the situation in the 221b scene which is clearly Mary's fault and not his. It is Mary who has betrayed both Sherlock and John, not Sherlock.

Vhanja · May 26, 2015 12:40 pm

Sherlock isn't made a villain by pointing out that it's unfair of him to put the blame on this over to John.

But, yeah, I think in both situations this might have to do with Sherlock's struggle with the finer parts of social interaction (when "sentiment" is involved). Perhaps he had a point that John would give it away if he knew about it, but considering John's state of mind, that is not a good thing to say at the moment. But Sherlock seems unable to deal with the emotional situation his return has caused, and everything he says just makes it worse.

As for the Mary situation, I think Sherlock's whole reasoning is off.

Either way, both situations come across to me as "We hurt you, because you chose this and therefore it's your fault". Which is pure victim blaming in my book.

Last edited by Vhanja (May 26, 2015 12:43 pm)

SusiGo · May 26, 2015 12:45 pm

I have said more than once that IMO he is not trying to blame John but trying to lull Mary. I think it is a show he puts on for Mary because he is desperate. He cannot defend himself or John and there is a woman with a loaded weapon in their flat who has killed for a living in the past and has nearly killed Sherlock. If he would side with John and tell him to leave Mary, what do you think she would do?

Vhanja · May 26, 2015 12:49 pm

He wouldn't have to interfer at all. It was their issue and not really his business.

I don't see her as a threat in that situation at all.

Last edited by Vhanja (May 26, 2015 12:50 pm)

SusiGo · May 26, 2015 12:55 pm

Well, I do see her as a threat. Very much so.

tonnaree · May 26, 2015 12:58 pm

Vhanja wrote:
He wouldn't have to interfer at all. It was their issue and not really his business.

I don't see her as a threat in that situation at all.

She shot Sherlock. She came to met Sherlock prepared to shoot him again. She told him repeatedly that there was NOTHING she wouldn't do to keep John.

How can she not be seen as a threat?