BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

nakahara · September 2, 2015 10:51 am

Lola Red wrote:
The point that I would find hard to forgive is the shooting of Sherlock, but for some reason that does not seem to bother any of the involved very much. I think Mummy is the only one to ever voice any upset about someone “putting a bullet” in Sherlock. John’s outburst in 221B is mainly related to the lying part, he only mentions the shooting when he tries to get Sherlock to agree with him, he is not even addressing Mary with any form of “Why did you shoot my best friend?”. Sherlock only seems upset that he has not been asked for help, not so much about getting shot.

I still can´t put my head around the way in which this show trivialises murder and yet takes things like lying for serious offence.

SusiGo · September 2, 2015 10:59 am

As for Sherlock: We have seen throughout the show that his self-esteem is based on his intellectual skills. He does not realise for a long time that people like him for other things and I doubt if he really has embraced the notion. This is not in the least due to Mycroft's strong influence since childhood. I suppose he does not value his own life very much and therefore does not hold a grudge against people who have tried to kill him (oversimplified but see what I mean).

And we should not forget that he does everything to keep John safe. If this means keeping Mary at bay by pretending he is not upset, he will do so.

Lola Red · September 2, 2015 11:21 am

Yes we know since ASIP that Sherlock would give his life to prove he is clever. We also know that Sherlock does not quite understand how someone could still be mad at another person of the second has said he/she is sorry for any wrong he/she may have caused the first (see TEH “I don’t understand. I said I’m sorry. Isn’t that what you’re supposed to do?”). So I can get behind him forgiving Mary after she said “I’m sorry Sherlock, I truly am”. But John? Not even mentioning it? He once punched someone for insulting Sherlock, but shooting him is ok? Or does that have to do with his trust issues, that the violation of the trust he had put in Mary overshaddows everything else?

Zatoichi · September 2, 2015 11:35 am

But, but John looked angry at her when Sherlock broke down, and still will occassionally be angry with her even after their consolidation!! Isn´t that more than enough punishment for a frightened pregnant lady, just for a little bullet between friends?

nakahara · September 2, 2015 11:38 am

Good points, Lola and Zatoichi.

It seems that after the Fall, Sherlock´s life and well-being are not as important to John as they were before.

SusiGo · September 2, 2015 12:13 pm

Lola Red wrote:
Yes we know since ASIP that Sherlock would give his life to prove he is clever. We also know that Sherlock does not quite understand how someone could still be mad at another person of the second has said he/she is sorry for any wrong he/she may have caused the first (see TEH “I don’t understand. I said I’m sorry. Isn’t that what you’re supposed to do?”). So I can get behind him forgiving Mary after she said “I’m sorry Sherlock, I truly am”. But John? Not even mentioning it? He once punched someone for insulting Sherlock, but shooting him is ok? Or does that have to do with his trust issues, that the violation of the trust he had put in Mary overshaddows everything else?

This is not quite what I meant. It is not about proving he is clever but about low self-esteem. Sherlock does not believe that anyone could truly like him and that he needs to be saved by someone he perceives to be a better person.

As for John: I do have some difficulties with his behaviour but I would not go as far and say that he does not care. The scene in 221B ends with him glaring at Mary and the next thing we hear that they have not spoken for months. This is not indifference. And since we do not know what happens during the "missing months" we cannot know what went on between the three of them. As for the Christmas scene - if this is forgiveness, it is the most reluctant and unromantic forgiveness scene ever. John looks as if he had bitten a lemon and Mary is half snappy, half soppy.

And one last thought - we are always talking about Sherlock having to mature, being on a personal journey, etc. But what about John? He is not a static character either. So what if there was a development from cold machine to more selfless, compassionate character on Sherlock's side and a sort of counter-development on John's? What if John also has to face his less attractive sides and overcome them in future episodes?

Last edited by SusiGo (September 2, 2015 12:17 pm)

SolarSystem · September 2, 2015 12:22 pm

SusiGo wrote:
As for John: I do have some difficulties with his behaviour but I would not go as far and say that he does not care. The scene in 221B ends with him glaring at Mary and the next thing we hear that they have not spoken for months. This is not indifference. And since we do not know what happens during the "missing months" we cannot know what went on between the three of them. As for the Christmas scene - if this is forgiveness, it is the most reluctant and unromantic forgiveness scene ever. John looks as if he had bitten a lemon and Mary is half snappy, half soppy.

I agree. I know that some people are pissed off with John because he seemingly didn't show any compassion for Sherlock during that scene in 221B. And yes, it's quite unbearable to watch Sherlock almost collapse while standing at the door and John not realising what his friend his going through. But I really do understand why John is mainly concentrating on himself here. And like you mentioned, Susi, we don't know what went on between Sherlock and John during those months between that scene and the Christmas scenes. I'd like to believe that they've sorted it all out. And I definitely believe that John cares about Sherlock. A lot.

nakahara · September 2, 2015 12:53 pm

It is not weird that John mainly concentrates on himself during the Baker Street Scene. But, as Lola Red pointed out, it´s utterly strange that he does nothing to Mary althrough in the past he smashed the face of a person who insulted Sherlock into a bloody mess. Sherlock was not the worse for wear after the insult, yet John fiercely punished the slur adressed to him by Chief Detective Inspector. The same cannot be said about Mary´s shot. Sherlock almost died there, yet all Mary gets for this feat is an angry glare? Hmmmm....

SusiGo · September 2, 2015 1:07 pm

Not talking to your pregnant wife, possibly moving out for months, is not just "an angry glare". The Christmas scene shows clearly that there has been next to no interaction between them for months. And we should remember that all this was very fresh for John. He learned about Mary, they went to Baker Street, they had the domestic - it cannot have been more than a few hours from finding Sherlock's empty hospital bed to Sherlock collapsing in the flat and all that went on in between. Bit much to stomach.

And I also feel a certain discomfort because IMO too much guilt is put on Sherlock (for the fall and the hiatus) and on John (for his behaviour in HLV) when the truly guilty characters are Moriarty and Mary. We should never forget who the real villains are in this story and I think they are not Sherlock and John.

nakahara · September 2, 2015 1:50 pm

Of course, rationally I am aware that John would never deal with a woman, the pregnant one at that, the way he dealt with Chief Detective Inspector - that would seem brutish and nasty even if she shot dozen of his best friends, unfortunately. So I cannot imagine either what more he could do than glare here.... I am also aware that Mary is the real villain here, not John.

It´s just.... since John declared himself Sherlock´s best friend, his indifference towards Sherlock´s suffering seems much more glaring than downright cruelty aimed at Sherlock from Moriarty, Mary, CAM and the like, if you know what I mean...

SusiGo · September 2, 2015 1:56 pm

Yes, I do. And believe me, I would have been happy if John had taken care of Sherlock and thrown Mary out of the flat. But it would have made for less drama. And I think they want to show us John being "the bad guy" for once because in series 1 and 2 he had to put up with quite a lot of things from Sherlock.

And there is a certain symmetry: While Sherlock is not too blame for the fall, John is not to blame for the situation they find themselves in now. Which again brings us to the true villains.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 2, 2015 6:40 pm

Swanpride wrote:
I don't think that it would have been helpful for Sherlock if John had ignored his request to trust Mary right then and there.

I Totally agree.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 2, 2015 6:41 pm

nakahara wrote:
Lola Red wrote:
The point that I would find hard to forgive is the shooting of Sherlock, but for some reason that does not seem to bother any of the involved very much. I think Mummy is the only one to ever voice any upset about someone “putting a bullet” in Sherlock. John’s outburst in 221B is mainly related to the lying part, he only mentions the shooting when he tries to get Sherlock to agree with him, he is not even addressing Mary with any form of “Why did you shoot my best friend?”. Sherlock only seems upset that he has not been asked for help, not so much about getting shot.
I still can´t put my head around the way in which this show trivialises murder and yet takes things like lying for serious offence.

Yep!

RavenMorganLeigh · September 2, 2015 6:48 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
But, but John looked angry at her when Sherlock broke down, and still will occassionally be angry with her even after their consolidation!! Isn´t that more than enough punishment for a frightened pregnant lady, just for a little bullet between friends?

HA!!!!!

RavenMorganLeigh · September 2, 2015 6:51 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Lola Red wrote:
Yes we know since ASIP that Sherlock would give his life to prove he is clever. We also know that Sherlock does not quite understand how someone could still be mad at another person of the second has said he/she is sorry for any wrong he/she may have caused the first (see TEH “I don’t understand. I said I’m sorry. Isn’t that what you’re supposed to do?”). So I can get behind him forgiving Mary after she said “I’m sorry Sherlock, I truly am”. But John? Not even mentioning it? He once punched someone for insulting Sherlock, but shooting him is ok? Or does that have to do with his trust issues, that the violation of the trust he had put in Mary overshaddows everything else?
This is not quite what I meant. It is not about proving he is clever but about low self-esteem. Sherlock does not believe that anyone could truly like him and that he needs to be saved by someone he perceives to be a better person.

As for John: I do have some difficulties with his behaviour but I would not go as far and say that he does not care. The scene in 221B ends with him glaring at Mary and the next thing we hear that they have not spoken for months. This is not indifference. And since we do not know what happens during the "missing months" we cannot know what went on between the three of them. As for the Christmas scene - if this is forgiveness, it is the most reluctant and unromantic forgiveness scene ever. John looks as if he had bitten a lemon and Mary is half snappy, half soppy.

And one last thought - we are always talking about Sherlock having to mature, being on a personal journey, etc. But what about John? He is not a static character either. So what if there was a development from cold machine to more selfless, compassionate character on Sherlock's side and a sort of counter-development on John's? What if John also has to face his less attractive sides and overcome them in future episodes?

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

And, yes-- it's John's turn to grow, I think....

SusiGo · September 4, 2015 7:01 am

There are some interesting thoughts in here, especially in the light of what Moffat said about TEH and TSoT, that there are clues but we do not see them because we like Mary (as does Sherlock).

http://57circlesofhell.tumblr.com/post/126336026069/just-sort-of-happened-wellthengameover

There is some speculation in there, but the fact that John gets kidnapped in a place only Mary knew he was going, and the thing about the text messages is strange.

And a question to the native speakers: Do you also say you are "late for someone" or just "late for something" (an event, etc.)?

Last edited by SusiGo (September 4, 2015 8:11 am)

Harriet · September 4, 2015 8:43 am

Of course anyone could have watched John - but in combination with the mobile messages, yes, strange indeed. I looked it up, M-theory says something similar.

Dorothy83 · September 4, 2015 9:05 am

SusiGo wrote:
There are some interesting thoughts in here, especially in the light of what Moffat said about TEH and TSoT, that there are clues but we do not see them because we like Mary (as does Sherlock).

http://57circlesofhell.tumblr.com/post/126336026069/just-sort-of-happened-wellthengameover

There is some speculation in there, but the fact that John gets kidnapped in a place only Mary knew he was going, and the thing about the text messages is strange.

And a question to the native speakers: Do you also say you are "late for someone" or just "late for something" (an event, etc.)?

You can say late for someone, as in, if I told my boyfriend I was going to see my friend Laura that night, I'd say to him 'I'm late for Laura', like Mary does...very colloquial and unformal but you definitely can

SusiGo · September 9, 2015 2:59 pm

An interesting take on the "forgiveness" scene:

http://the-secret-life-in-221b.tumblr.com/post/128709433013/prepared-words-chosen-with-care

RavenMorganLeigh · September 9, 2015 4:42 pm

SusiGo wrote:
An interesting take on the "forgiveness" scene:

http://the-secret-life-in-221b.tumblr.com/post/128709433013/prepared-words-chosen-with-care

That's an awesome post-- but a point was made about it yesterday that bears thinking about: If John hadn't forgiven Mary, why then , when they were on the way to Appledore, when Sherlock asked John " Do you want to save your wife or not?" , why did John answer, "Yes." And following that-- why submit to the Flicking from Magnussen-- it was for Mary's sake. Soooo....that makes it seem like John really did forgive Mary.