Oh, I read this a minute ago. Even without the Austen parallel it is a wonderful observation.

True. Have to read it again. I had Austen in my oral exam at university.

And to return to Mary - one big problem of course is that at the end of the series we do not know what kind of person she is. One might call it with Dickens "A Tale of Two Marys", two characters that have nothing in common and are basically irreconcilable. I am not speaking of simplistic labels like loving wife or killer but the way she behaves. In the whole of HLV there is no trace of TEH Mary left. For me, and I am just speaking for myself, the impression of HLV Mary is very strong and almost blots out my first impressions of her. And this is what we were left with for the hiatus. 

Last edited by SusiGo (August 31, 2015 8:40 am)

Oh, this is a very delicate subject, Vhanja. I really would not make this comparison and I do not think that a person who has done the things you mention could be regarded as merely complex. IMO someone who has done unspeakably cruel things can never be regarded as a morally good person even if they were loving husbands/wives/parents. I think this comparison is inappropriate and should not be used to discuss Mary's character. 

Last edited by SusiGo (August 31, 2015 9:27 am)

Um... sorry, but what kind of comparison is that, Vhanja?
Do you really mean that?
Though I don't like the character of Mary it would never come into my mind to compare her with... least of all as an excuse for her behaving like she did.

Last edited by gently69 (August 31, 2015 10:16 am)

No, Vhanja, FAIL

Would you say this in the present of the surviving children?

Please don't tell me "fail". That seems rude and kind of condescending. My sentence concerning the concentration camp soldiers is actually from our Master course in Ethics. I am used to being able to discuss these things in a serious manner without going into full defence and horror mode by the mere mention of it, as holocaust has tremendous amounts of interesting and important things to learn from when it comes to ethics and evil-doings in humanity. (Especially to learn that under the right circumstances, most of us are capable of doing horrible deeds).

I apologize for thinking this could be discussed, no, even only mentioned, on this forum in the same manner as I am used to when discussing ethics with others.

Vhanja, I didn't get from your post that people who worked in concentration camps were morally good - rather that the person doing unspeakable things at work and the person leading a normal family life at home were actually the same person (or different aspects of the same personality, rather than two completely different personalities within one body).   With Mary, it's difficult to tell because we don't really get a chance after the revelation in HLV to see if she's still the same Mary as before.  It's all caught up in confrontation or reconciliation.   It's only really at the airport scene where you could expect to see a glimpse of the old Mary.    So it's a bit of a mystery.  I suspect that Mary would still be Mary as we knew her, but we don't actually see it.  I do think that she most likely genuinely loves John. 

I don't think Pride and Prejudice comparism works quite so well at this point.  There is a little bit of Mr Darcy in how Sherlock is shown, particularly at the beginning (appears superior, arrogant, etc.).  Like Mr Darcy, he's clearly good underneath the "front", but I don't think that's a suprise: I think it's more than evident (to us and to John in particuar) by HLV. 

On the other hand, Mary can also be a little bit "prickly" and can sometimes come across a little superior or arrogant too.  Not as much as Sherlock, but I do see a bit of that in her character.

Last edited by Liberty (August 31, 2015 10:36 am)

Now this is what I call condescending, Vhanja. Believe me, I know quite a lot about this part of history and I am very able to discuss it in the right context. But this is not the right context, especially since this thread is heated and passionate enough without bringing the subject of nazism into it. I would have wished you to understand this instead of basically telling us that we are not able to discuss this in a serious manner. 

Last edited by SusiGo (August 31, 2015 10:34 am)

Better not sulk.
Vhanja, you are aware that those users who feel a bit not good with this comparison are actually Germans? Believe me, it's a big topic here from very childhood in all school forms to keep the memory of the horror alive and not using it in an inappropriate way and context. This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with not being allowed to name the horror.
Liberty, thank you for getting us back to topic, I can't quite grasp your point though. On the one hand you say the Austen paralleling doesn't work for you, on the other hand you agree with Sherlock/Darcy similarities. I don't understand that fully.

I see.
But actually it is not at all said that Mary isn't prickly from time to time. The main focus is Sherlock on the one hand and we can take into consideration his developement as whole from the beginning of S1, and on the other hand the developement Mary takes ( and we can only take S3 in account, of course...)
The parallels rather arrogant to human and nice and charming to a bit cold-blooded works quite well for me.