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March 28, 2015 10:36 am  #781


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I do not think that these things are always solved within one episode. The Mary arc begins with Sherlock's muddled/confused/false/ignored deductions in TEH, not as late as HLV. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 28, 2015 10:39 am  #782


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

That is true, but I don't see that as exactly the same. This is an open and spoken deduction he made after a big incident, not just an unspoken failure to spot something about a person.


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March 28, 2015 10:55 am  #783


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

As I have said before, I think that Sherlock is lying about Mary calling the ambulance. He is unreliable as a narrator because he must have been unconscious the moment the call took place. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 28, 2015 11:03 am  #784


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I believe he is making a "guesstimate" based on the fact that the ambulance came in time despite John not being able to find for at least a few more minutes. 

Also, this is what Benedict says about Sherlock's view on Mary:

"He can see how good she is for John and that she has a love for him that goes well beyond the darkest episodes and chapters in her past. Sherlock can see that everything she does to conceal her identity is to save her love for John. So Sherlock can see the sacrifice, where John can only see the betrayal." (from the Chronicles).

Yes, I know that some of you dont like quotes from outside the series, but to me they help clear up the parts that are ambivalent in the show.


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March 28, 2015 11:05 am  #785


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

As I have said before, I think that Sherlock is lying about Mary calling the ambulance. He is unreliable as a narrator because he must have been unconscious the moment the call took place. 

BTW there are several sequences in which you see Magnussen reaching for the phone before Sherlock loses conciousness. Just to mention another person who could have called the ambulance.


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March 28, 2015 12:41 pm  #786


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

The ambulance (if he's telling the truth) is a deduction, not an observation.   It's backed up by Sherlock precisely timing the arrival of the paramedics at 221B.  (I presume it would have come from information from John - John could have told him what time he found him, what time the ambulance arrived and that Magnussen was just coming to).   That doesn't mean Sherlock is correct, but it's pretty much a given that a major skill of his is deducing things without having to have seen them directly.   There should hopefully be deductions in every episode, and this scene is partly a deduction scene, I believe.  I think that everything he works out about Mary here is a deduction.

 

March 28, 2015 12:43 pm  #787


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, this is true. But is does not contradict the idea that Magnussen could have phoned. He must have been keenly interested in keeping Sherlock alive because he was his pressure point for Mycroft. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 28, 2015 1:11 pm  #788


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

Yes, this is true. But is does not contradict the idea that Magnussen could have phoned. He must have been keenly interested in keeping Sherlock alive because he was his pressure point for Mycroft. 

My thoughts exactly.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

March 28, 2015 1:41 pm  #789


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Oh, it doesn't rule out anything for definite - all if it is deduction rather than direct observation. 

Magnussen phoning is possible, but a little more complicated.  It would have meant that ..

- Mary was unsuccessful at knocking him out (well, she was unsuccessful at either killing Sherlock or not "killing" Sherlock, so possible ).
- Magnussen wants to keep secret the fact that he phoned for an ambulance (but we're not given a reason why)
- Magnussen phones, then lies down on the floor and pretends to be just coming to when John arrives
- However, he takes the risk that the ambulance will arrive before John (in which case his secret would be exposed).

I think we're just seeing a more simple deduction.  Perhaps Sherlock started by wondering why Magnussen hadn't been killed.  He doesn't mention his sources, but probably mainly John, perhaps medical notes, speaking to staff, etc.  He deduces that Mary knocked Magnussen out because Magnussen is coming round when John arrives (John probably told him).  He knows that somebody must have called an ambulance before John did because it arrived too quickly.   The only person who was conscious and could have done it is Mary.   Which then seems to rule out Mary wanting him dead, so on to the next deduction that Mary shot to incapacitate. 

There are lots of holes where something else could have happened, or there could have been things that Sherlock missed, but I think that's the basis of the deduction we see on screen - fairly simple in the end. 

(All this written from the point of view that Sherlock believes his deduction, because otherwise it gets confusing to write!  If he didn't believe it and is faking it, then his reasoning for the deduction still stands, I think).

A bit of an aside, but I do think the deductions need to be simple enough that audiences can follow them.   They should be satisfying, the way they are in the stories. 

 

March 28, 2015 11:57 pm  #790


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Could I just point out that Mary knocking CAM unconcious is also something that Sherlock would've been out for.  This is Sherlock's educated guess again.  But we don't know for sure that CAM was too out of it to call for help.


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March 29, 2015 12:12 am  #791


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

@ Mary calling the ambulance...its possible but..
Its based on a timing Sherlock took while dieing ..and notoriuos London traffic......and that Mary was stupid enough to leave her voice recording of it..
The idea that Magnussen called 999 while Marys back was turned looks likely from the images you see him reach and grab for the phone and the phone in his hand...and then John also called within moments...so.....

@The medical jargon metas are interesting...but Mofftis aren't writing for them...or people like us that analyse everything...j

@with the Mary accidentally killed him SP....how does that thought process work for Mary?
Mary refused help right then..but decided I will shoot you now and then ask /threaten you for your help / silence the moment you wake up....
if she just wanted to take a safe shot.....that doesn't instantly silence him..or necessarily make him instantly unconcious or unable to talk?

 

March 29, 2015 8:26 am  #792


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

tonnaree wrote:

Could I just point out that Mary knocking CAM unconcious is also something that Sherlock would've been out for.  This is Sherlock's educated guess again.  But we don't know for sure that CAM was too out of it to call for help.

That's what I'm trying to say - I don't think these are supposed to be things that Sherlock saw.  They're things that Sherlock deduced (or made an educated guess at!).  That's what Sherlock does.  When John comes into the office, Magnussen appears to be just coming round after being knocked out, but the ambulance had already been called. (No reason why John wouldn't have told Sherlock about Magnussen being knocked out if he'd asked). 

Of course Magnussen could have been acting, but there are no clues there for Sherlock that he is.   Obviously if Magnussen had been conscious, he'd have phoned for the ambulance (he wanted Sherlock alive).   There would have been no reason for him to lie about it and pretend to have been knocked out - not that we or Sherlock can see.  

The phone that Magnussen is reaching for is another clue or hint for Sherlock - doesn't Sherlock assume that Mary makes the call from Magnussen's phone? 

Again, none of this proves Sherlock is right (or telling the truth),  but it's not necessary for him to observe everything firsthand - what would the stories be like if that was the case?  He's a detective, after all.  I think maybe the fact that this scene is so emotional and tense, hides the fact that it's actually a deduction scene as well.

 

March 29, 2015 8:32 am  #793


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

lil wrote:

@The medical jargon metas are interesting...but Mofftis aren't writing for them...or people like us that analyse everything...j

@with the Mary accidentally killed him SP....how does that thought process work for Mary?
Mary refused help right then..but decided I will shoot you now and then ask /threaten you for your help / silence the moment you wake up....
if she just wanted to take a safe shot.....that doesn't instantly silence him..or necessarily make him instantly unconcious or unable to talk?

I agree about the medical metas - they are probably looking deeper than was intended, with greater knowledge than Moftiss. 

Also agree that it wouldn't be instant silence - but bleeding out would probably quite quickly make somebody incoherent and then unconscious.  If Sherlock's deduction was right, then I think that is what she was aiming for.  She did want him to be seriously injured enough that he wouldn't come round quickly (unlike Magnussen). 
 

 

March 29, 2015 10:34 am  #794


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Very interesting thoughts, you all. So Sherlock might be right. He also might be wrong which has happened with his deductions more than once. The difference here, however, is that we never learn if he is right. Mary does not deny or confirm his deductions. In HoB e.g. we learn that the drug was not in the sugar. We learn that Magnussen does not have a mind palace. But Sherlock's deductions about Mary are never clearly confirmed or disproven which makes room for so many discussions. 

Last edited by SusiGo (March 29, 2015 10:34 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 29, 2015 12:16 pm  #795


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

True.  Mary doesn't give any information.  I think it's interesting how they've done it, as there's plenty of room to move in different directions in S4. 

I do think some of Sherlock's deductions are very likely to be correct (that Mary was an assassin, that she changed her identity, etc.). 

 

March 29, 2015 12:23 pm  #796


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I agree with all of this.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 29, 2015 12:30 pm  #797


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

About the question of who phoned the ambulance. I’m not sure. I think it is very likely that Mary would knock CAM out. Especially now that he knows there is someone else in the office. He might actually quite enjoy outing her to John. So I think the safer prospect for Mary was to leave no one conscious in that room. CAM might have come to much earlier than we where let to believe. Or he had already send for help, I don’t own a Smartphone, but surely there’s an app for that. We don’t see Mary take off her gloves, but they could be of the kind that still allow you to work a touch screen, so that part is not really conclusive for me. Also Sherlock’s ambulance arrival time theory is absolute rubbish. The average arrival time might be 8 minutes, but depending on the start location of the ambulance and the location of the emergency, the standard deviation would be huge, and I’m not even taking traffic into the equation. Of course one could make an estimate if one knows the start location and the destination of the ambulance, but testing that again with another destination (Baker Street) and presumably even another start location the results would not allow for a valid control. So it is also possible that is was simply John who phoned the ambulance, which happened to be much closer to the site of emergency than Sherlock presumed.


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March 29, 2015 12:36 pm  #798


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I didn't rewatch now, but to add to the general speculation, if Magnusson might have called an ambulance grabbing the phone? Maybe he could have called someone else...

I don't know about London ambulances, but the one time I was present when one was called, they said it would take 15 mins on the phone, and exactly (!) 15 minutes later it came rushing down the road. I was impressed.

Last edited by Whisky (March 29, 2015 12:38 pm)


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March 29, 2015 1:18 pm  #799


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

This maybe isn't clear but here's a screenshot ... John has found Sherlock and is trying to rouse him, then turns as Magnussen raises his head:


Magnussen has been lying on the floor, presumably because Mary knocked him out.  That's why Sherlock guesses it was Mary who called the ambulance. 

If it was Magnussen that called the ambulance, it would have meant that after he'd done it, he'd taken his glasses off and put them on the floor, then lain down on the floor and waited for John to arrive.  He could have done that, but we're not given a reason why he would.  It needs a whole new set of hints, clues, deductions and motivations for that. 

(Another very minor point is that I think John would have said "call an ambulance" to Magnussen as soon as he walked in, if Magnussen had been conscious.   Or he might have asked "Have you called an ambulance?").

I completely agree about the ambulance timing - it's pretty ludicrous.  But I do think we're set up to stretch our belief to include it - it seems that Sherlock can accurately predict the arrival of paramedics, because we see that happen, even though it's just as unbelievable that it would be exactly 8 minutes the second time as it is the first time.   It feels almost like a nod to the audience: "Obviously, this is farfetched, but look, in this universe, it's plausible".   In other words, I don't think that the unpredictablity of ambulance arrival time in the real world is supposed to be a clue that Sherlock is lying/mistaken.

 

April 3, 2015 8:34 pm  #800


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I just saw Sherlock Uncovered, the part about villains. Amanda says that Mary was there to kill Magnussen, and that she was the one who called the ambulance.


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


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