BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



June 5, 2017 11:17 am  #5121


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

And we are to accept all three as being on the same moral level? 

Yes we are. I just can't. :-/


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

June 5, 2017 11:34 am  #5122


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Schmiezi wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

And we are to accept all three as being on the same moral level? 

Yes we are. I just can't. :-/

More people can´t:

http://loveinthemindpalace.tumblr.com/post/161202370180/i-saw-someone-comparing-john-being-a-soldier-to
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

June 5, 2017 12:10 pm  #5123


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

@Nakahara, the citation is in one of my big, long posts that I understand not everybody wants to read all the way through, so here it is again!
Sherlock: Why didn't you come to me in the first place?
Mary: Because John can't ever know that I lied to him.  It would break him and I would lose him ...

If Mycroft knows who Mary is (and I think he does), then there's no reason for him to turn her in - she was working for him, after all, and he apparently trusted her, and no doubt sees her as a protective factor. 

I do agree that it would have been interesting to have more of Mary's past.  I would like to have seen more of where she came from, her work with the CIA, what got her into that line of work in the first place, what sort of life she'd had before, when she did her nurse training (partly because that's such a contrast in role - although I suppose is a kind of parallel with the soldier/doctor thing).  However, I think that would have made it too much the Mary show!  Maybe it would have worked for a spin-off episode.    But she's not the main character, and even John doesn't get a huge amount of backstory.  She served her purpose story-wise, and we were told what we needed to know about her.   Yes, TST was about Mary's past, but it was mainly about a particular part of her past that was relevant to the story - what AGRA was, why she left, why she was in danger, how that linked in to Sherlock and Mycroft and so on, and the effects on the present, and the consequences of all of that.  I wouldn't have been very interested in other jobs that weren't relevant to her character or the story.

Although I suppose it's a testament to Amanda and the writing that people who wanted less Mary, now wish there was more Mary!

Last edited by Liberty (June 5, 2017 12:12 pm)

 

June 5, 2017 1:21 pm  #5124


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

People who wanted less Mary did not really get what they wanted, right? TST is about her, she (resp. her "ghost") plays a prominent part of TLD, and she gets to give the final speech at TFP. I am dead sure that that huge ammount of Mary would have been better received if she had been written differently.

I have read myself through some German comments (TST has aired in Germany yesterday) and they all agreed that Mary just did not work. That's interesting, because they are surely no Johnlockers, just regular watchers.

Unfortunately, the comments are in German. For those who want to take a look anyway, I hope the link works:
http://www.robots-and-dragons.de/news/113744-sherlock-staffel-4-kritik-sechs-thatchers#


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

June 5, 2017 2:49 pm  #5125


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Rache wrote:

I also have two explanations/thoughts about why Mary said John wouldn't love her anymore if he found out. One has been explained more or less by others in this thread. The other one is a completely fresh ides that came to my mind while reading through all your posts.But it is late now and to make my thought more valid the best thing would be to rewatch certain scenes.
Feel free to remember me if I should forget to share my thoughts.

Ok, so back to this.

The first one, that has been more or less explained by others, is that Mary thinks wrong of John. She believes herself, that the stuff she has done, is very bad. I think it is very likely that in all her life she hasn't experienced much forgiveness from other people. Maybe deep down, she thinks she doesn't deserve "good" John (although John isn't an angel, as we know.). I think this idea could be supported by some of her lines in T6T, some of them while dying. She thinks she doesn't deserve him, so she assumes he will leave her, if he finds out, she isn't perfect at all. But she is underestimating John. She is experiencing a forgiveness from him, she would have never thought to be possible. Therefore  the line and her strong belief in "I would lose him" and "you won't love me anymore."


The second one.
I rewatched and sadly I don't think it is as plausible as it was when the thought came to me the first time. But here is it nontheless, it is a completely new thought and maybe some people get new ideas from it or even see it as "their" solution, why Mary is convinced John won't love her anymore.
This exlpanation is concentrating around the scene in 221B in HLV, when Mary passes over the AGRA memory stick. I assume that all we learn about AGRA in T6T as a viewer, can be found on this memory stick (and even more, we maybe don't learn about, but that's not the point). The thing is, by passing John (and maybe Sherlock) the memory stick, she is betraying the others from the AGRA team. We learn, that the stick is their insurance, that it must be kept a secret between the four of them at all costs. That they would rather die, than letting their identities fall into the hands of someone else. Mary knows, that John is honouring loyalty and a promise beyond anything.
Betraying her team, that has been like friends or even family, by giving the stick away, would be a no-go for John.
As I already said, this theory has its flaws and you can find much to argue against it. And then again even find counter arguments.
-For example, you could say, that it is stupid to keep AGRAs identities a secret, when she has to believe, that the other three are dead. What keeping it secret for? But clearly Mary is still carrying that stick with her, after all those years... and maybe she thinks it decent to stay loyal. It is her style to honour the other three? John is a doctor and a soldier. Loyalty and keeping a promise, keeping a secret, even beyond death, is something he is familiar with. (For example: a doctor is bound to medical confidentiality even after the patient's death.)

Make of those thoughts what you want.


- - -

Breathing is boring!

English isn't my first language, feel free to correct me via PM!
 

June 5, 2017 3:17 pm  #5126


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I really like that idea, Rache!  I'm not sure it's the reason why she thinks John wouldn't love her ... because then I would think, why share the stick?  Why not tell him about her past but not name names?  (Although I admit, she gives the reason for that - because she doesn't want to watch him.  She doesn't want to do it face to face.  So maybe the stick is an easy way out).  

Yes, I think she truly believes the other people are dead, so the stick is no longer needed for its original purpose.   Personally, I don't think the stick is an ideal way to handle the problem of possible betrayal myself.   But I suppose it's needed for the plot!  Anyway, your idea is very interesting and I'm going to think about it.

Another thought that was going through my mind was about naming the baby Rosamund.  Of course, Mary couldn't have done that if John had read the stick.  So it's interesting that there's a conversation about naming the baby immediately after John burns the stick in front of Mary, and Mary points out that John doesn't know her name, and then says she'll choose the baby's name.   It was only in that particular moment, that the name "Rosamund", her own name, became available. 

So no wonder John is a bit miffed about the name in TST, when he finds out it was originally Mary's.  (Although after Mary's death, he's maybe glad that Rosie carries her name).   And maybe there's a bit of a feeling that she preferred her old life, and that's why she chose that name - which Mary refutes when she's dying, saying that she only wanted to be Mary Watson. 

 

June 5, 2017 3:51 pm  #5127


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

And I believe her.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 5, 2017 4:08 pm  #5128


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I believe her too.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

June 5, 2017 4:31 pm  #5129


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Why wouldn't we believe her?   And I'm sure John believes her too.  However, I think she's almost answering an unspoken of question of his: John may have previously had a moment of doubt - especially when it seems she had a jolly old life as Rosamund, with her AGRA mates.  He knows both of them prefer excitement and danger, and they've both been struggling with domestic life.  He may have thought Mary clinging to her old name showed a sentimental attachment to her old life. 

 

June 5, 2017 6:18 pm  #5130


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Vhanja wrote:

Liberty - good point. I sort of just assumed that John knew she was an assassin by that point. I do still think there are worse stuff on that stick than her freeing hostages, though. But yeah, I do see how that changes it a bit. And as I've mentioned prior to S4, I don't view Magnussen as a reliable source seeing as he was deliberately goading John at that point.

kgreen20 - Yes, but he wasn't bothered for a second afterwards either. Other people might have done the same, but they'd be devastated afterwards. Even Sherlock, who has a greyer morale than John, is surprised that John isn't fazed by it.

Probably because John was a soldier as well as a doctor (for the most part, other people aren't soldiers, including Sherlock).  It very likely wasn't the first time that John was compelled to take a life to save another; he probably had to do that repeatedly in Afghanistan.  As a doctor, John's job was to heal; as a soldier, his job was to protect.  And for a soldier, protecting can, and so often does, mean killing, as he did when he shot Hope to protect and save Sherlock.
 

Last edited by kgreen20 (June 5, 2017 6:26 pm)

 

June 6, 2017 5:50 pm  #5131


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Schmiezi wrote:

I have read myself through some German comments (TST has aired in Germany yesterday) and they all agreed that Mary just did not work. That's interesting, because they are surely no Johnlockers, just regular watchers.

Unfortunately, the comments are in German. For those who want to take a look anyway, I hope the link works:
http://www.robots-and-dragons.de/news/113744-sherlock-staffel-4-kritik-sechs-thatchers#

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

Irgendwie bekommt man das Gefühl, dass Autor Mark Gatiss bestimmte Eckpunkte in der übergreifenden Handlung abarbeiten wollte und sich wenig Gedanken darüber macht, wie logisch der Weg zu diesen Punkten ist.

So true!

 

Last edited by nakahara (June 6, 2017 5:51 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

June 6, 2017 6:08 pm  #5132


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

@Nakahara, the citation is in one of my big, long posts that I understand not everybody wants to read all the way through, so here it is again!
Sherlock: Why didn't you come to me in the first place?
Mary: Because John can't ever know that I lied to him.  It would break him and I would lose him ...

Thank you, now I know what you were speaking about previously.
Still, your explanation doesn´t really cover the mysterious AGRA USB we saw in HLV. When Mary gave it to John during the Baker Street scene with the words "don´t read in front of me, you won´t love me anymore if you do", John already knew she was lying to him whole of the time, so this could not be the real reason of her distress.... 

Liberty wrote:

If Mycroft knows who Mary is (and I think he does), then there's no reason for him to turn her in - she was working for him, after all, and he apparently trusted her, and no doubt sees her as a protective factor. 

And Mycroft protects her, so how could she be a "wanted" woman?

Liberty wrote:

I do agree that it would have been interesting to have more of Mary's past.  However, I think that would have made it too much the Mary show!  Maybe it would have worked for a spin-off episode.    But she's not the main character, and even John doesn't get a huge amount of backstory.  

But previous episodes made huge deal about her past! It would be only logical to explain those secrets during TST before killing Mary off, even if it meant filling the episode with her even some more (it was all about her anyway....)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

June 6, 2017 6:14 pm  #5133


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Were they not some of Mark's infamous red herrings?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 6, 2017 6:17 pm  #5134


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I really do not think so. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 6, 2017 7:31 pm  #5135


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think it's genuinely that Mary doesn't want to see the process of John reading the stick and falling out of love with her.  If you think there has to be more to it than that, then perhaps it's because the stick shows a whole secret life before John, and, as I've mentioned, a choice to be a hired killer.   But what we know it's not, is Mary saying "I did something worse than work as a an assassin", because that hasn't yet been revealed. 

About being a wanted woman - I presumed Mary was telling the truth when she said she could be put away for life.   But maybe she wasn't ... I don't suppose it matters.   I imagine freelance assassin work is generally illegal.   But as she was working for Mycroft and he seems to trust her, I don't think he feels any great urge to see justice served (he didn't with Sherlock either).  He's more loyal to the queen than to the law, I think.  (I imagine the CIA would like a word with her, though!)

And yes, although I'd have been interested in seeing more of her past, I think it was right they only included the bits that were relevant to the story.  (Also, I think it might have turned into even more of James Bond story, and they've already been criticised for James Bond elements and references!)    As I mentioned, we've had very little on John's past, and surely he's a more important character?   It would also be interesting to see more of his past, but again, they are probably right to leave it out if it doesn't affect the story.

Last edited by Liberty (June 6, 2017 7:46 pm)

 

June 6, 2017 8:55 pm  #5136


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well, seeing as John is a permanent cast member, one of the two main heroes of the show (the other being Sherlock), I rather hope that on the next go-around, they will give us more of his back history than they've done so far.  Because you're right, the show has given us a lot more of Mary's back history than John's, and I, for one, would like very much for that to change.
 

 

June 6, 2017 8:57 pm  #5137


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Possibly John's history is rather dull.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 6, 2017 9:34 pm  #5138


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well, surely they could change that!?
They only have to write something interesting.^^


- - -

Breathing is boring!

English isn't my first language, feel free to correct me via PM!
 

June 6, 2017 9:40 pm  #5139


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I agree. We do not know much about Mary but about we know even less. We have no idea about his family, except Harry, who they always hidden from us. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 7, 2017 5:37 am  #5140


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

John's history may be important to some, but it's not important to me.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum