SusiGo wrote:

And we are to accept all three as being on the same moral level? 

Yes we are. I just can't. :-/

@Nakahara, the citation is in one of my big, long posts that I understand not everybody wants to read all the way through, so here it is again!
Sherlock: Why didn't you come to me in the first place?
Mary: Because John can't ever know that I lied to him.  It would break him and I would lose him ...

If Mycroft knows who Mary is (and I think he does), then there's no reason for him to turn her in - she was working for him, after all, and he apparently trusted her, and no doubt sees her as a protective factor. 

I do agree that it would have been interesting to have more of Mary's past.  I would like to have seen more of where she came from, her work with the CIA, what got her into that line of work in the first place, what sort of life she'd had before, when she did her nurse training (partly because that's such a contrast in role - although I suppose is a kind of parallel with the soldier/doctor thing).  However, I think that would have made it too much the Mary show!  Maybe it would have worked for a spin-off episode.    But she's not the main character, and even John doesn't get a huge amount of backstory.  She served her purpose story-wise, and we were told what we needed to know about her.   Yes, TST was about Mary's past, but it was mainly about a particular part of her past that was relevant to the story - what AGRA was, why she left, why she was in danger, how that linked in to Sherlock and Mycroft and so on, and the effects on the present, and the consequences of all of that.  I wouldn't have been very interested in other jobs that weren't relevant to her character or the story.

Although I suppose it's a testament to Amanda and the writing that people who wanted less Mary, now wish there was more Mary!

Last edited by Liberty (June 5, 2017 12:12 pm)

Rache wrote:

I also have two explanations/thoughts about why Mary said John wouldn't love her anymore if he found out. One has been explained more or less by others in this thread. The other one is a completely fresh ides that came to my mind while reading through all your posts.But it is late now and to make my thought more valid the best thing would be to rewatch certain scenes.
Feel free to remember me if I should forget to share my thoughts.

Ok, so back to this.

The first one, that has been more or less explained by others, is that Mary thinks wrong of John. She believes herself, that the stuff she has done, is very bad. I think it is very likely that in all her life she hasn't experienced much forgiveness from other people. Maybe deep down, she thinks she doesn't deserve "good" John (although John isn't an angel, as we know.). I think this idea could be supported by some of her lines in T6T, some of them while dying. She thinks she doesn't deserve him, so she assumes he will leave her, if he finds out, she isn't perfect at all. But she is underestimating John. She is experiencing a forgiveness from him, she would have never thought to be possible. Therefore  the line and her strong belief in "I would lose him" and "you won't love me anymore."


The second one.
I rewatched and sadly I don't think it is as plausible as it was when the thought came to me the first time. But here is it nontheless, it is a completely new thought and maybe some people get new ideas from it or even see it as "their" solution, why Mary is convinced John won't love her anymore.
This exlpanation is concentrating around the scene in 221B in HLV, when Mary passes over the AGRA memory stick. I assume that all we learn about AGRA in T6T as a viewer, can be found on this memory stick (and even more, we maybe don't learn about, but that's not the point). The thing is, by passing John (and maybe Sherlock) the memory stick, she is betraying the others from the AGRA team. We learn, that the stick is their insurance, that it must be kept a secret between the four of them at all costs. That they would rather die, than letting their identities fall into the hands of someone else. Mary knows, that John is honouring loyalty and a promise beyond anything.
Betraying her team, that has been like friends or even family, by giving the stick away, would be a no-go for John.
As I already said, this theory has its flaws and you can find much to argue against it. And then again even find counter arguments.
-For example, you could say, that it is stupid to keep AGRAs identities a secret, when she has to believe, that the other three are dead. What keeping it secret for? But clearly Mary is still carrying that stick with her, after all those years... and maybe she thinks it decent to stay loyal. It is her style to honour the other three? John is a doctor and a soldier. Loyalty and keeping a promise, keeping a secret, even beyond death, is something he is familiar with. (For example: a doctor is bound to medical confidentiality even after the patient's death.)

Make of those thoughts what you want.

And I believe her.

Why wouldn't we believe her?   And I'm sure John believes her too.  However, I think she's almost answering an unspoken of question of his: John may have previously had a moment of doubt - especially when it seems she had a jolly old life as Rosamund, with her AGRA mates.  He knows both of them prefer excitement and danger, and they've both been struggling with domestic life.  He may have thought Mary clinging to her old name showed a sentimental attachment to her old life. 

Schmiezi wrote:

I have read myself through some German comments (TST has aired in Germany yesterday) and they all agreed that Mary just did not work. That's interesting, because they are surely no Johnlockers, just regular watchers.

Unfortunately, the comments are in German. For those who want to take a look anyway, I hope the link works:
http://www.robots-and-dragons.de/news/113744-sherlock-staffel-4-kritik-sechs-thatchers#

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

Irgendwie bekommt man das Gefühl, dass Autor Mark Gatiss bestimmte Eckpunkte in der übergreifenden Handlung abarbeiten wollte und sich wenig Gedanken darüber macht, wie logisch der Weg zu diesen Punkten ist.

So true!
 

Last edited by nakahara (June 6, 2017 5:51 pm)

Were they not some of Mark's infamous red herrings?

I think it's genuinely that Mary doesn't want to see the process of John reading the stick and falling out of love with her.  If you think there has to be more to it than that, then perhaps it's because the stick shows a whole secret life before John, and, as I've mentioned, a choice to be a hired killer.   But what we know it's not, is Mary saying "I did something worse than work as a an assassin", because that hasn't yet been revealed. 

About being a wanted woman - I presumed Mary was telling the truth when she said she could be put away for life.   But maybe she wasn't ... I don't suppose it matters.   I imagine freelance assassin work is generally illegal.   But as she was working for Mycroft and he seems to trust her, I don't think he feels any great urge to see justice served (he didn't with Sherlock either).  He's more loyal to the queen than to the law, I think.  (I imagine the CIA would like a word with her, though!)

And yes, although I'd have been interested in seeing more of her past, I think it was right they only included the bits that were relevant to the story.  (Also, I think it might have turned into even more of James Bond story, and they've already been criticised for James Bond elements and references!)    As I mentioned, we've had very little on John's past, and surely he's a more important character?   It would also be interesting to see more of his past, but again, they are probably right to leave it out if it doesn't affect the story.

Last edited by Liberty (June 6, 2017 7:46 pm)

Possibly John's history is rather dull.

I agree. We do not know much about Mary but about we know even less. We have no idea about his family, except Harry, who they always hidden from us.