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February 1, 2015 9:20 am  #21


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Very interesting thoughts, everyone! 

The problem I´m still having with understanding cornered and desperate Mary are the following:

I can see why she´s in desperate fear of Magnussen´s knowledge on her, as this really means her life and the life of everyone she loves is in danger. I can see she´d want to save her unborn child at all costs!

But with Sherlock and John knowing it´s different. This wouldn´t mean her life is in danger, because if she really thinks John and Sherlock would just hand her over and leave her to die, then how can she ever claim to "get them" or see through them? They would never kill anyone over hurt feelings, and they´d protect her unborn child at all costs. So when she rather shot Sherlock than confide in him and risk the danger John would find out, she wasn´t desperate for her life and her child, but for her marriage. I can see how that´s still frightening when she really loves John, but well.. she´s in that corner now, and she has the choice either to risk her new-found happiness or to risk the death of her friend. She chose her marriage over a life.. and I find that very very hard to accept. We can argue that this decision had to be made very quick and she just made a mistake, but nothing whatsoever in her behaviour afterwards suggests  a feeling of regret. We can argue that she was so fixed on the idea that "no one can know, alone protects me" that she didn´t think rationally in that moment, but I find that very hard to get together with her being an ex-assassin who has to remain rational in a crisis situation. That´d be similar to "she´s a crack shot that precisely calculated the way of her bullet, but then again not really precisely enough".. the snarky bad-ass ex-assassin who can´t live 7 months without danger and yet looses rational thought when the love of her man is at stake..?

Last edited by Zatoichi (February 1, 2015 9:25 am)

 

February 1, 2015 10:00 am  #22


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think I have to see her as just not knowing them well enough, or understanding them well enough.   (The following is assuming that Mary isn't a plant, and didn't mean to kill Sherlock, etc., neither of which I think is a given).  She meets John when he's still grieving and is completely out of that life - he's not his usual self.  She meets Sherlock when he comes back from the dead as an almost Christ-like figure, and HE isn't his usual self either.   They throw themselves straight into wedding plans, and then it's almost straight into the scene in Magnussen's office (the first time Mary sees Sherlock since the wedding).  

I can bring myself to believe that from the view of Sherlock she's had, Mary might believe that he wouldn't harbour a murderer (and possibly that even if he would keep her from the authorities, that he wouldn't keep it secret from John.  TSOT is so much about John and Sherlock's relationship and Mary has seen all that).  After all, she believes that John would be broken if he found out, and that he'd leave her, neither of which happen. 

So, I don't think it's so much that she makes a mistake because it's a crisis situation, but that she's thinking rationally using the flawed and incomplete information she has, and judgments that she's made. 

She does put herself at risk to stop John being a suspect - it would have been so much simpler and safer to kill Magnussen before she left.   (Although there's a slight flaw in that argument - if she was SURE Sherlock was going to survive, then presumably his testimony could have got John out of that situation.  Although, John would be in a much stronger position with Magnussen's testimony as well).

I agree that we don't seem to see regret, though.  And I think both John and Mary treat Sherlock badly in the scene at 221B. when he's trying to save them. 

Last edited by Liberty (February 1, 2015 10:04 am)

 

February 1, 2015 10:02 am  #23


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Zatoichi, you summed up my thoughts exactly.
I can only repeat myself and say that I really liked Mary up until she shot Sherlock instead of trusting him. I even think I could have forgiven her. But I can't at the moment because of two thingsa)the lack of a motive that really convinces me that she was left with no other choice and (b) the utter lack of remorse on her part.

@Lola: I love the way you argue. It always felt well thought through and with a healthy emotional distance. I just had to giggle when you wrote about "mixed massages". Even though they could surely need a proper massage with all the tension in HLV.  ;-)


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I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

February 1, 2015 10:22 am  #24


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Swanpride wrote:

@SusiGo No....I was just wondering why her surgery shot wasn't perfect. Another theory is that Sherlock's Shirt is slighty askew in the scene. She might have missed the right spot because of it.

Also, she warned him that she would shot him. The "problem" was that he didn't believe that she would. One of the few miscalculations Sherlock makes.

 
I like Sherlock much better without any shirt, too! 

Right. Your own fault if you move towards a threatening dog... this is how I got bitten once myself.
Wait, the dog's name is Redbeard, not Mary? 

Last edited by Harriet (February 1, 2015 10:25 am)


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

February 1, 2015 10:42 am  #25


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

One cannot complain if he gets neary killed by accident because his shirt is askew. That is exactly why I tell my pupils to dress properly.

Sorry for the irony.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

February 1, 2015 11:00 am  #26


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

The vena cava is a very prominent blood vessel right where she shot him. That is what the meta I have posted several times is about.

I am afraid that the only plausible reason why Sherlock died is because she wanted him to. She only didn't shoot him straight in the head to leave herself the benefit of doubt in case something went wrong.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

February 1, 2015 11:38 am  #27


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

"Whoo, Sherlock, I'm so sorry, sniff, I didn't want that, but then you suddenly moved a little bit, and your shirt wasn't in its normal position, and I ran out of time, and so I apparently nicked the wrong vessel, sob, normally I'm very good at surgery shots, sniff, can you forgive me this time?" 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

February 1, 2015 11:43 am  #28


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

I think I have to see her as just not knowing them well enough, or understanding them well enough.   (The following is assuming that Mary isn't a plant, and didn't mean to kill Sherlock, etc., neither of which I think is a given).  She meets John when he's still grieving and is completely out of that life - he's not his usual self.  She meets Sherlock when he comes back from the dead as an almost Christ-like figure, and HE isn't his usual self either.   They throw themselves straight into wedding plans, and then it's almost straight into the scene in Magnussen's office (the first time Mary sees Sherlock since the wedding).  

I can bring myself to believe that from the view of Sherlock she's had, Mary might believe that he wouldn't harbour a murderer (and possibly that even if he would keep her from the authorities, that he wouldn't keep it secret from John.  TSOT is so much about John and Sherlock's relationship and Mary has seen all that).  After all, she believes that John would be broken if he found out, and that he'd leave her, neither of which happen. 

So, I don't think it's so much that she makes a mistake because it's a crisis situation, but that she's thinking rationally using the flawed and incomplete information she has, and judgments that she's made. 

So if I get you correctly, the additional motive except saving her marriage would be to keep her out of prison and to spare John´s mental health.. I guess I can see that. From my point of view that still doesn´t justify her actions, but I can kind of see her reasoning behind it. She´s much more attached to her freedom and to John than to Sherlock.. and I´m much more attached to Sherlock, so I guess on an emotional level we just can´t get together..^^

I also think of all the bad choices she has made that led up to this.. killing people for money, still living by the moral standard that some people just deserve to die (and not just when cornered, she said that in a pretty matter-of-fact-way while sitting in front of the fireplace. Yes, Sherlock kills people too when he sees no other choice, but it´s unlikely all of Mary´s killings have been self-defence or in defence of innocents/some high moral principle.. otherwise she wouldn´t be so convinced that John wouldn´t love her anymore if he knew what she did.).. starting a relationship she thinks wouldn´t hold if her partner was to know the truth about her.. wow, that´s pretty deep into morally grey area.

I´m all in for second chances.. but now she nearly killed my Sherlock during her second chance.. went after him with a gun, looked ice-cold during their confrontations and was totally cheerful when they parted for an unknown time.. I find it pretty impossible to get to the point to think "well, it´s all understandable on a human level, she made bad choices but she´s still totally likable, let´s just start over with a clear slate". And I confess I´m slightly miffed that her mysterious likable appeal (that never worked on me like it did on John and Sherlock) trumps her dodgy past to the point that neither John nor Sherlock want to know anything about it, and that all this ambiguous behaviour was just a trick to make the final revelation about her saving his life more surprising and is not supposed to mean anything beyond that (or that you have to assume she just lashes out and lashes out again out of loss of control and desparation.. like a deer in the headlight, poor thing..) Sorry, it doesn´t work for me, although I confess it´s more on an emotional level and I can intellectually understand how Mary´s (and Moftiss`) reasoning might have worked.

After all Mary seems to be the tipping point that makes me unable to relate to the characters´ motives, actions and feelings anymore.. and that includes John and Sherlock, too.

 

February 1, 2015 11:55 am  #29


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Good post, zatoichi. Very well put. So what I get up to now that with a lot of thinking we can at least see the reasoning behind the chain of events. We differ in our empathy towards Mary and finding her a forgivable protagonist though. And what I personally miss is reasoning behind the writing and creative decisions as to how she was shown after the shooting: in costumes, makeup and lightning but also her words and how to bring them across for example towards John.

And Harriet, lol, but there's a flaw, since she never asked for forgiveness....


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

February 1, 2015 12:16 pm  #30


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, a discussion of the stylistic choices would be welcome. I would like to contribute later because I not at home just  now.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

February 1, 2015 12:34 pm  #31


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

mrshouse wrote:

Good post, zatoichi. Very well put. So what I get up to now that with a lot of thinking we can at least see the reasoning behind the chain of events.

Thank you.. It´s like with the whole of S3, after reading tons and tons of meta and thoughts of other´s you begin to see that there might be a way of seeing things that actually make sense.. kudos for keeping your audience engaged with your work, I guess. ^^

On a completely different note, it´d be interesting to know how Mary´s case would be judged by an actual jury..

About the stylistic choices, I guess everything from the shot to the revelation was designed in order to keep the audience guessing.. maybe even to tip the scale to the "bad Mary"-side.. just to make everyone go "oooooh" when the truth is revealed. I find myself a little tired of this story-telling-technique.. but from interviews I got the impression that their main goal is to keep a very young and engaged audience on their toes, and I guess they achieved that. Imo the show isn´t designed for people that care a lot for continuity, consistent psychological portraits and (mostly) waterproof logic anymore.. the heightened reality of S1 and 2 has been heightened to a level that some of us don´t find accessible anymore. Conclusion: I´m too old-fashioned for the new "Sherlock"..^^. Pity.

Last edited by Zatoichi (February 1, 2015 12:48 pm)

 

February 1, 2015 12:47 pm  #32


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

mrshouse wrote:

And Harriet, lol, but there's a flaw, since she never asked for forgiveness....

I'm just gonna do a strange thing and cite myself here:

Lola Red wrote:

If one is to look and listen closely, Mary says to Sherlock, immediately after firing her gun “I’m sorry Sherlock; I truly am.”. So there is an apology there, one can choose to believe it or not, both might be valid. I have made this point some time ago but from Sherlock perspective, it seems in character to accept the apology, even if he might still feel uneasy about it. In TEH we see him perplexed at John’s prolonged anger after he had apologized for faking his death (and his somewhat insensitive reintroduction into his life). It would make sense for him to offer the unquestioning forgiveness he had been denied.

 


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February 1, 2015 12:54 pm  #33


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

@ Zatoichi, Oh, I'm with you on the attachment to Sherlock - I find myself feeling quite protective of him and almost angry on his behalf during those scenes.  During a lot of S3, in fact!   I watched S3 knowing that Mary was going to shoot Sherlock, and maybe that got in the way of forming an attachment to her.  I didn't know what her reasoning would be and if I'd be able to justify it, but I knew that what I was seeing of her was false, so there was a distance there from the beginning.  It takes a conscious effort to try to see her point of view and work out how she might have been thinking.  I still find her quite mysterious. 

The "surgery" explanation would have worked for me if Sherlock had been less seriously injured.    It doesn't work for me as it is.   But then it's not the only thing that doesn't work for me in the show (the murders in TSOT spring to mind).   You're probably right about aiming at a younger audience.  Drama and excitement do seem to come first. 

I'm sure if Mary was tried, it would be for attempted murder, as in real life, she had to have known that he would probably die.  If she'd shot him in the leg and he'd bled to death than maybe that could be manslaughter, but I'm sure that a chest shot like that would have to be attempted murder (and I don't think "surgery" would be a defence - not that I know).  If Sherlock had died, it would be murder, not manslaughter, wouldn't it?

(Just to add - if she was exposed, it's possible that her fate might be something worse than prison.   I'm thinking of the end of ASIB where prison appears to be the kinder option.   There are people who want her dead, and somebody like her might be dealt with "undercover" in the way Mycroft dealt with Irene). 

Last edited by Liberty (February 1, 2015 12:58 pm)

 

February 1, 2015 1:09 pm  #34


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don't think Mary expected Sherlock to survive the shot..the apology she gives just before she shoots does seem one of the most sincere and honest moments we get from Mary so far...but it sounds to me more like a goodbye than a...we will talk more when you recover from this....
At the hospital Mary seems conflicted when learning about Sherlocks survival.
I think the excuses Sherlock gives for her at the confrontation all seem wrong!  because they are...Sherlock is selling them to John  and making the best of a bad situation.
Sherlock probably knows that the truth about Mary will break John because John cares more for morals and principles than either Mary or Sherlock. John still needs his mask of normality and morality and Sherlock almost gives it back to him.
From Sherlocks POV ... if John has to have a wife then...Mary is probably a good choice for John...and his own shooting unimportant and over with.. he wants to move on to Magnussen.
 

 

February 1, 2015 1:26 pm  #35


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

(Just to add - if she was exposed, it's possible that her fate might be something worse than prison.   I'm thinking of the end of ASIB where prison appears to be the kinder option.   There are people who want her dead, and somebody like her might be dealt with "undercover" in the way Mycroft dealt with Irene). 

You think the British authorities would deal with a young mother like that? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/nerdy.png
 ;P
No but I agree, with people really wanting her dead the prison wouldn´t actually be a safe place for her.

Her apology is one of the ambiguous things for me.. it does sound genuine, her voice is shaking a little, but this is such a small and almost inconceivable thing that in the light of her behaviour afterwards it didn´t tip the scale to "honest regret" for me. (It doesn´t help that I sometimes say "I´m really sorry, but you can´t be here" before I squash a mosquito..)^^
 

 

February 1, 2015 1:36 pm  #36


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think lil put it very well, sounds like good-bye, not we'll talk about it later. And her attitude from there on destroys it for me.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

February 1, 2015 1:41 pm  #37


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Zatoichi wrote:

The problem I´m still having with understanding cornered and desperate Mary are the following:

I can see why she´s in desperate fear of Magnussen´s knowledge on her, as this really means her life and the life of everyone she loves is in danger. I can see she´d want to save her unborn child at all costs!

But with Sherlock and John knowing it´s different. This wouldn´t mean her life is in danger, because if she really thinks John and Sherlock would just hand her over and leave her to die, then how can she ever claim to "get them" or see through them? They would never kill anyone over hurt feelings, and they´d protect her unborn child at all costs. So when she rather shot Sherlock than confide in him and risk the danger John would find out, she wasn´t desperate for her life and her child, but for her marriage. I can see how that´s still frightening when she really loves John, but well.. she´s in that corner now, and she has the choice either to risk her new-found happiness or to risk the death of her friend. She chose her marriage over a life.. and I find that very very hard to accept. We can argue that this decision had to be made very quick and she just made a mistake, but nothing whatsoever in her behaviour afterwards suggests  a feeling of regret. We can argue that she was so fixed on the idea that "no one can know, alone protects me" that she didn´t think rationally in that moment, but I find that very hard to get together with her being an ex-assassin who has to remain rational in a crisis situation. That´d be similar to "she´s a crack shot that precisely calculated the way of her bullet, but then again not really precisely enough".. the snarky bad-ass ex-assassin who can´t live 7 months without danger and yet looses rational thought when the love of her man is at stake..?

Very very interesting post, allow me to add my two cents: I think that is exactly what happened; emotion, “sentiment”, got in the way. I find it very interesting that at a time that we see Sherlock developing a great deal emotionally we are given one more example of “sentiment it a chemical defect found in the loosing side”. Sherlock has spent most of his life shutting himself off from sentiment, Mycroft (who is even more intelligent than Sherlock) still very much lives that way. And now we see how sentiment leads a “snarky bad-ass ex-assassin” totally off track.
 
Also, I think she indeed get’s both Sherlock and John absolutely wrong. She see’s them as two man who are one the side of the angles, willing to risk their life to get after “the other side”. I think she believes that once they find out that she belongs to “the other side”, they will turn on her. What she fails to see is that John is deeply bound to her by the same thing that is clouding her own judgement: sentiment. And she fails to see that Sherlock can actually emphasise a lot with “the other side”. He might be on the side of the angles, but he is not one of them. For him, it is a conscious decision that he has to make every single day of his life. One could argue that when he shot an unarmed Magnussen in the head, he decided to leave the side of the angles (at lest temporarily). In a way, the way Sherlock is wired is closer to Mary than it is to John, who is closer to Lestrade for example. John and Lestrade are “angles”, Sherlock and Mary are not and have to decide which side to stand on. And Mary fails to see that, she thinks the "angles" will turn on her, but she is blind to the fact that Sherlock isn’t one of them and John is more than just an “angle”, he is an “angle” in love with her and that alters their actions.
Admittedly, this is was quite a trip into speculation land, but there you go.


 

Last edited by Lola Red (February 1, 2015 2:17 pm)


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February 1, 2015 2:04 pm  #38


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Zatoichi wrote:

On a completely different note, it´d be interesting to know how Mary´s case would be judged by an actual jury..

Attempted murder/manslaughter I would guess. I’m not quite clear on the defining criteria of the two. “Heat of the moment” (“Affekt” for the Germans) might come into it, but fact is she shot a man from a close distance in the chest.

Zatoichi wrote:

About the stylistic choices, I guess everything from the shot to the revelation was designed in order to keep the audience guessing.. maybe even to tip the scale to the "bad Mary"-side.. just to make everyone go "oooooh" when the truth is revealed. I find myself a little tired of this story-telling-technique.. but from interviews I got the impression that their main goal is to keep a very young and engaged audience on their toes, and I guess they achieved that. Imo the show isn´t designed for people that care a lot for continuity, consistent psychological portraits and (mostly) waterproof logic anymore.. the heightened reality of S1 and 2 has been heightened to a level that some of us don´t find accessible anymore. Conclusion: I´m too old-fashioned for the new "Sherlock"..^^. Pity.

I have not gotten into the details of the stylistic choices myself yet, but I would love to read about your thoughts about it in detail (I’m also very much looking forward to SusiGo’s post about it). The “knife in the back” screen capture might have been accidental (the knife in the mantelpiece goes all the way back to Doyle), but the red cape at the airport definitely was not. What do you make of it?

Btw: I am sorry to hear the show as lost some of it’s sparkle to you, hopefully the special/next season can bring it back for you.


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February 1, 2015 2:08 pm  #39


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Schmiezi wrote:

@Lola: I love the way you argue. It always felt well thought through and with a healthy emotional distance. I just had to giggle when you wrote about "mixed massages". Even though they could surely need a proper massage with all the tension in HLV. ;-)

Thank you http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png
And giggles are good, this is supossed to be funhttp://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


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We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.    http://i.picasion.com/av/83/2rrf.jpg
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February 1, 2015 2:59 pm  #40


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well, Sherlock himself doubts he has a heart at all…http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/tongue.png

But joking aside, I see your point. Sherlock does walk away from being shot; though it was an incredibly close call. In TBB we learn that “when an assassin cannot shoot straight” it means that “they are not really trying”. So we can assume that the fact Sherlock lives had something to do with what Mary did, the exact location she choose to place the bullet. I remain sceptic if “surgery” is the most appropriate term for what Mary did, but it was not a kill shot either.
 

Last edited by Lola Red (February 1, 2015 2:59 pm)


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