BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Lola Red · May 8, 2016 11:31 am

Schmiezi wrote:
The way the discussion is going makes me wonder:

John killed the cabbie (to save Sherlock's life), Sherlock killed Magnussen ( to keep Mary and therefore John save) and Mycroft planned for Moriarty to die on the rooftop (to stop an evil criminal to go after his Baby Brother again and again).

Mary surely knows about the cabbie and Moriarty, and yet she thinks that John will stop loving her if he reads what is on the stick.

What the hell has she done??? It must be worse than killing the cabbie and Moriarty. Scary thought, isn't it?

I am not too sure she would know about the cabbie or a possible planned assassination of Moriarty. Why would John, Sherlock or even Mycroft tell anyone about any of that? As far as we know, they all thought she was a nurse. Given the information they supposedly had on her, her reaction to such revelations about her beloved husband and his best friend would have been unlikely to be sympathetic.

As to what she had done, we can only speculate. Her comment that it is "people like Magnussen", not just "some people" who "should be killed", indicates that she acts on some sort of moral compass, but there is something on that hard drive that worries her...

Schmiezi · May 8, 2016 11:56 am

Lola Red wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
The way the discussion is going makes me wonder:

John killed the cabbie (to save Sherlock's life), Sherlock killed Magnussen ( to keep Mary and therefore John save) and Mycroft planned for Moriarty to die on the rooftop (to stop an evil criminal to go after his Baby Brother again and again).

Mary surely knows about the cabbie and Moriarty, and yet she thinks that John will stop loving her if he reads what is on the stick.

What the hell has she done??? It must be worse than killing the cabbie and Moriarty. Scary thought, isn't it?
I am not too sure she would know about the cabbie or a possible planned assassination of Moriarty. Why would John, Sherlock or even Mycroft tell anyone about any of that? As far as we know, they all thought she was a nurse. Given the information they supposedly had on her, her reaction to such revelations about her beloved husband and his best friend would have been unlikely to be sympathetic.

As to what she had done, we can only speculate. Her comment that it is "people like Magnussen", not just "some people" who "should be killed", indicates that she acts on some sort of moral compass, but there is something on that hard drive that worries her...

Again, why would killing only people like Magnussen make John stop loving her?

Plus: according to TAB, at least Sherlock thinks that she is able to out-smart Mycroft and his MI6- security system. How can she NOT know about the cabbie and Moriarty?

Lola Red · May 8, 2016 12:06 pm

as I said: there is something on that hard drive that worries her. Collateral damage? "Undeserving" victim? Hit too close to home? Who knows?

Yes, drugged Sherlock seems to think she might be able to out-smart Mycroft, but we do not know yet if that is true or not.

As for not knowing: she might be able to hack into databases, but she can only see what is inside them. The cabby would not be there and why would Mycroft keep records of "Lazarus" and the 12 alternative options? As far as we know, she does not share Sherlock's and Mycroft's capabilities of deduction, so she would have to rely on the stuff that she can hack into, provided her super-hacker capabilities are real.

SolarSystem · May 8, 2016 12:06 pm

Indeed, what could be on that USB stick that could make John stop loving her?
I am more and more convinced that it must have something to do with Sherock and/or John. And I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Mary turned out to be another River Song. Obducted as a child by an obscure organisation, then conditioned to kill people - and maybe one of those people is Sherlock? River Song was conditioned to kill The Doctor, but she fought against that conditioning. And when she had the chance to kill the Doctor she shot at him - and missed. She deliberately missed. Does that remind us of anyone?
They might just give us a Mary who, just like River, was under the control of some organisation (and it's not as if we haven't heard of such an organisation in "Sherlock" yet...) and because of that had to do what she did. But then she fell on love with John Watson and started to fight against the conditioning - and we will have to end up forgiving her because let's face it, none of what happened was her fault, it was the fault of the people she was working for.

Schmiezi · May 8, 2016 12:12 pm

Wow, that conditioning thing would surely reduce her to a victim. Not sure I'd like that.

No, wait. I really don't like that.

Edit: @Solar: Do you see any hints at that in one of the episodes?

Last edited by Schmiezi (May 8, 2016 12:16 pm)

mrshouse · May 8, 2016 12:38 pm

Hm, hints could be:
- we still don't know her full background
- she shot Sherlock, and it's not fully explained why she had no other choice at all
- she can somehow be seen as driven by emotions and what the Mofftiss thinks is love and compassion
- we have obviously something very nasty on the flash drive (and I agree with Solar it might have something to do with either John or Sherlock)
- we have had thoughts that Mary might be connected to the snipers at the pool in TGG, though I'm not sure if that came from the writers or the fans
Did I miss something?

Liberty · May 8, 2016 12:39 pm

I agree that it's likely to be something more personal that she's worried about. And also that she's unlikely to know about the cabbie (presumably only Sherlock and John know, and I don't think it's the sort of thing John would have told her - although I could be wrong). She could possibly have got the information about Moriarty elsewhere (if she's a plant, etc.), but again, I don't know if John would have told her - I don't know if he even knows or has thought about how Mycroft and Sherlock planned it. I think it really all depends on whether she is "working" and whether her work involved Sherlock/Mycroft/John. Anyway, I don't know if what's she's worried about is to do with just being an assassion - she admits to that, does not seem to see it as wrong (that's why there are people like her), and Sherlock seems to accept it (however, it could be about a particular target).

Another thing is that she doesn't seem to know exactly what they will accept, and could have it wrong yet again. She believes that Sherlock wouldn't consider helping her, and believes that John would be broken and would leave her if he found out about her. Neither of these turn out to be true, and she could be on the wrong track with the USB stick too. Either John believes that she is on the wrong track (that nothing she has done would stop him loving her), or, possibly, he suspects that she's on the right track (something she has done would stop him loving her) but he doesn't want to stop loving her, so destroys the evidence.

That would be a little like in the original story, where Watson dreads what's going to be in the AGRA box, because he feels he can't propose to a rich Mary. He's relieved when it's empty. Maybe John deliberately empties/destroys it to preserve the relationship?

SolarSystem · May 8, 2016 12:46 pm

Schmiezi, I wouldn't like that, either. Among other things also because it would mean that Moffat would be repeating himself on a grand scale. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if he did exactly that. Among other things, River marries the Doctor... Mary marries John... there are quite some parallels in the two narratives. In DW it turns out that two of the heroes, Amy and Rory, are River's parents. For "Sherlock" this could mean that Sherlock's and Mycroft's parents are Mary's real parents... but this might take it a bit too far.
I admit that I really haven't thought this theory completely through yet, so there certainly are holes in it. I'll have to think about it a little more.
And I'm not sure there are concrete hints in the episodes which point to a conditioning. The fact that Mary shot Sherlock and killed him and then again she didn't... might be one hint that she was supposed to kill him and didn't really want to but had to make it look as if she really tried and missed - so the organisation would believe that she didn't miss on purpose.

besleybean · May 8, 2016 2:02 pm

Good points, Solar.
Incidentally, I just want to say that I don't think anything will make John stop loving Mary, where did that even come from?
Yes he was stopped in his tracks, by her big reveal and the fact she shot Sherlock.
But he's forgiven her and moved on from then.
I do not think we are going to ever see him stop loving her, certainly not now.
Quite the opposite.
We are going to see a broken man grieving over the loss of the love of his life and I only hope Sherlock can help him get through it.

mrshouse · May 8, 2016 2:19 pm

Erm...that comes from herself????
And I seriously wonder where that idiom "love of his life" comes from? It's not what I see on screen, certainly not since HLV.

besleybean · May 8, 2016 2:23 pm

Oh sorry, I see what you mean...
We were at cross purposes!
Well yes, I can imagine whatever's on that data stick is pretty yuk...CAM alluded to Mary's past.
But for me,hopefully it's all in the past.
I agree it would be harder for John to deal with and maybe that's exactly why he chose not to.

mrshouse · May 8, 2016 2:38 pm

Yes, maybe so, but that is exactly the point, isn't it? What kind of basis is that to go on from? To share your lives, to raise a baby, to have sex?

SusiGo · May 8, 2016 3:30 pm

I think a relationship that is built on such an enormous lie respectively repression cannot work. And I still do not see how John "trust issues" Watson should ever accept this.

besleybean · May 8, 2016 4:13 pm

I think repression and not wanting to know somebody's past are actually two different things.
Plus for me, part of the 'your future is my privilege', is John trusting Mary that her past life is over.
Now this doesn't mean her past won't catch up with her, but it may at least mean she has tried a fresh start.

kgreen20 · May 8, 2016 5:14 pm

I think she is, too. Whether she'll succeeded remains to be seen. Her past may well catch up with her in Season 4.

RavenMorganLeigh · May 8, 2016 9:56 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I think a relationship that is built on such an enormous lie respectively repression cannot work. And I still do not see how John "trust issues" Watson should ever accept this.

That's an excellent point, SusiGo! Why do we expect John "trust issues" Watson to suddenly become as pliable and trusting as the average lamb, just because he supposedly loves Mary? I mean, its apparent that he still doesn't entirely trust Sherlock!

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 9, 2016 6:38 am)

besleybean · May 9, 2016 6:19 am

But he's told Mary he will occasionally get pissed off with her.

RavenMorganLeigh · May 9, 2016 6:30 am

besleybean wrote:
But he's told Mary he will occasionally get pissed off with her.

Err--- no disrespect meant here-- but your comment reeks of desperation-- someone grasping at straws to make a point.

The thing is-- if we all are for John and Sherlock-- "you and me against the world"-- there can't be a loser. However, if one is more invested in John and Mary-- and with Sherlock-- only if needed to save them-- you've got a problem.

Quite frankly-- I'd rather a show about Sherlock on his own, than a show about Mary and John and Baby-- with a little Sherlock on the side.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 9, 2016 6:42 am)

besleybean · May 9, 2016 7:04 am

I could equally argue there is a desperation in those who seem to think Mary is going to be around for ever.
I really don't think she's going to be.
I repeat what I have said before:
why get so wound up about a character who may(in the long run) only be in 2 series out of 10?
I feel that canonically Mary was the love of John's life and I think BBC Sherlock have reflected that.
My greater concern therein, is that some may be surprised at how devastated John will be when he loses her.
Now, one may not understand why John loves Mary, or even want him to love her.
But as far as this TV show goes, I accept that he does and I am with him on that and will be with him in his despair.

Schmiezi · May 9, 2016 7:13 am

besleybean wrote:
I could equally argue there is a desperation in those who seem to think Mary is going to be around for ever.
I really don't think she's going to be.
I repeat what I have said before:
why get so wound up about a character who may(in the long run) only be in 2 series out of 10?
I feel that canonically Mary was the love of John's life and I think BBC Sherlock have reflected that.
My greater concern therein, is that some may be surprised at how devastated John will be when he loses her.
Now, one may not understand why John loves Mary, or even want him to love her.
But as far as this TV show goes, I accept that he does and I am with him on that and will be with him in his despair.

He will surely be grateful for that. ;-)