Which individuals have been discussed?
I haven't noticed any individuals being discussed.
I also don't see anybody presenting anything either as black and white nor right or wrong.
I think we are all very aware there is a range of views on the forum.
Expressing an opinion is not being being mean.
I had an individual on here call my post rubbish.
Not one word was said about it.
I don't mind,but it was noted.
 

As a mod, my note was addressed to the entire forum and meant to address the subject in an overall manner.

Liberty wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Liberty wrote:

I'm just not convinced that she's actually being presented as a cold-blooded murderer (or a serial killer).  

With the information we have on her, how do you perceive her?
 

There's very little information, and what we have is not corroborated.   So all I've got to go on is what (I think) is being presented to us.   There's something about the story that's the wrong way round, if it was meant to present Mary as a murderer/serial killer.  I think if they were showing us that, there would be murders, and eventually Sherlock would deduce that Mary was the killer.   But this way round - we see Mary shoot (apparently to kill) first, we have to assume she's an evil murderer (as does Sherlock, at first), but then Sherlock's deductions give a different kind of story and a different slant on the character. 
 

It's been a White since I last watched HLV, but is it not said that she was / is an assassin  (=she killed people = she is a murderer)?

Liberty wrote:

  She's presented as an assassin and an agent, rather than as a murderer,
 

Where is the difference between an assassin and a murderer?

But do you feel she's being presented as a murderer?  Or are you just talking about whether the characters have wilfully killed anybody?  Sherlock has murdered somebody, but there's no way that I see him being presented as a murderer.   I understand that people do think she's being presented in this way, and that we're meant to be convinced that she's a villain, but I don't think it works well for the reasons above. 

The more I think of it I feel she's somehow not presented as anything so far. She gets character traits that are needed in the very scene, e.g. being clever, funny, threatening, beautiful, snarky, strong, "my girl", outsmarting Mycroft, pretty again....where are her character strengths? What are her weaknesses? What made her the way she is?

Yes, I've noticed that myself.  And I agree that she is not being presented as a murderer, nor that she was deliberately trying to kill Sherlock in that scene.
 

I wonder if Mary could be "properly" presented as the murderer in the series in the way you are speaking about, Liberty. I mean - if she was presented as anything else than a cute housewife before the shocking reveal in HLV, it would spoil the surprise.... So?  

Errr.... An assassin is a  person who kills someone (such as a famous or important person) usually for political reasons or for money. 

If it was just secret agent government sanctioned killings for Queen and Country, Mary wouldn't have to worry about going to prison for the rest of her life!
Full Definition of assassin
[list=a]
[*]1capitalized :  a member of a Shia Muslim sect who at the time of the Crusades was sent out on a suicidal mission to murder prominent enemies
[*]2:  a person who commits murder; especially :  one who murders a politically important person either for hire or from fanatical motives
[/list]


 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 7, 2016 5:54 am)

Just a thought:

I always say that it would have been easy for the writers to portrait Mary in a way that helped everybody to forgive her: let her show honest remorse afterwards, let her say sorry in the redemption scene, give us more background to understand her.
(And please don't just argue that they showed enough of it because apparently they didn't, or else we would not discuss her like that.)

After reading some of the posts from the last days, I cannot help to think that the writers could just as easily have included a few things to makes everybody remain unforgiving: tell us about the things that will make John stop loving her, give us visuals of her other crimes.
(And please don't just argue that they showed enough of it because apparently they didn't, or else  we would not discuss her like that.)


My conclusion: the writers did not want to make clear if she should really be forgiven or not.

The question now is why? In my mind, it makes no sense to leave the ambiguity if they simply intend to keep her in the show as part of the crime solving trio.

What do you think?