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April 12, 2016 6:33 am  #3101


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes I certainly don't want anybody to leave.
I didn't want those who have left, to leave either.
It is so difficult via the internet, you have no control over how people perceive your posts.
What you mean as a throwaway comment, can be taken, blown up out of all proportion and thrown back in your face.
All I can add is that there are occasions where I've felt at best lectured to and at worse preached at!
But I guess that's what happens when people are passionate.
But the saddest thing for me, after I've read somebody's post and I've actually turned to people and said this is: wow, does that person actually like anything about the show at all?
The best advice I can offer to anyone at the moment is:  keep faith, we are within 9 months of S4...give it a chance.
But finally: I prefer passion on a lead character and major plot line, to(for instance) hair styles!

Last edited by besleybean (April 12, 2016 6:39 am)


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 12, 2016 6:54 am  #3102


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

mrshouse wrote:

@nakahara, please don't leave.
We need to have different opinions in a discussion forum. And everybody has doubts from time to time. I certainly do if I'm being very honest. And sometimes you write down things that gnaw at me but I can't put a finger on it till I see a post you wrote. We should be careful with negativity and polarization though. I think that got a bit out of hand yesterday. But I would miss your contributions.

I never intended to leave, mrshouse. (But thank you for your concern, dear.)
I just shup up about a theme that obviously grated on others nerves. Because it was pointed up to me during weekend that my posts may sound overly negative to some members, I tried to apologise in advance that I might sound bitchy when posting these - but even that came out wrong, for obviously it sounded like some veiled salty sneer at others.
So I considered it wiser to stop adding more petrol to the fire in the situation and stop for the moment.
I´ll certainly try to be more careful with my words in the future, but of course, I can´t always predict how my post will sound to others, so please, indulge with me. I just like to discuss problems, but personal attacks and infighting are really not my thing, so if somewhat sounds overly sarcastic to you, please, point it out to me right away, so that I can avoid it.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 12, 2016 6:56 am  #3103


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

Yes I certainly don't want anybody to leave.
I didn't want those who have left, to leave either.
It is so difficult via the internet, you have no control over how people perceive your posts.
What you mean as a throwaway comment, can be taken, blown up out of all proportion and thrown back in your face.
All I can add is that there are occasions where I've felt at best lectured to and at worse preached at!
But I guess that's what happens when people are passionate.
But the saddest thing for me, after I've read somebody's post and I've actually turned to people and said this is: wow, does that person actually like anything about the show at all?
The best advice I can offer to anyone at the moment is:  keep faith, we are within 9 months of S4...give it a chance.
But finally: I prefer passion on a lead character and major plot line, to(for instance) hair styles!

Good post, besley!


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 12, 2016 7:17 am  #3104


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

nakahara wrote:

I just shup up about a theme that obviously grated on others nerves. Because it was pointed up to me during weekend that my posts may sound overly negative to some members, I tried to apologise in advance that I might sound bitchy when posting these - but even that came out wrong, for obviously it sounded like some veiled salty sneer at others.
So I considered it wiser to stop adding more petrol to the fire in the situation and stop for the moment.
I´ll certainly try to be more careful with my words in the future, but of course, I can´t always predict how my post will sound to others, so please, indulge with me. I just like to discuss problems, but personal attacks and infighting are really not my thing, so if somewhat sounds overly sarcastic to you, please, point it out to me right away, so that I can avoid it.

It's ok, nakahara, thanks for this 
 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

April 12, 2016 7:18 am  #3105


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

But finally: I prefer passion on a lead character and major plot line, to(for instance) hair styles!

One probably needs to understand that hair style, clothing etc. is also a part of a character set up 
 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

April 12, 2016 7:22 am  #3106


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I just found a very interesting meta that toys with the theory of Mary being Magnussen´s accomplice and maybe a real Moriarty. Many things from that could be plausible from what we had seen in HLV:

https://monikakrasnorada.tumblr.com/post/142645505632/who-told-us-that-magnussen-was-blackmailing-mary


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 12, 2016 7:59 am  #3107


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

If Mary is going to be a villain, I'd rather she wasn't just Moriarty's pawn, so that theory suits me.   I'd also much prefer the baby to be CAM's than David's! (If that's the ex's name - I've forgotten).   I also kind of like the idea of Magnussen expecting Sherlock to deduce that Mary's behind it all.   But I don't think the theory is likely to be the real one. 
 

 

April 12, 2016 8:04 am  #3108


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

What has always struck me is that apart from being amused no one seems to be interested in the telegram. If Sherlock hated Magnus sen so much, he at least should have become suspicious. And what about John? Would a husband not wonder about the word poppet and the allusion to May's family? Plot hole or intent?


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 12, 2016 8:49 am  #3109


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Maybe the others were supposed to "forget" about the telegram because of the following Sholto drama?
But yes, it´s weird how Sherlock didn´t notice CAM initials on that.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 12, 2016 8:58 am  #3110


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Will be interesting to see if that telegram returns in some form.

I wouldn't mind if Mary turned about ot a villain, working for Moriarty. However, I would mind if she turned out to be Moriarty. I don't know, I like Andrew Scott's Moriarty so much, it would feel wrong if Mary was the "true one", in a sense.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

April 12, 2016 10:55 am  #3111


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Vhanja wrote:

I wouldn't mind if Mary turned about ot a villain, working for Moriarty. However, I would mind if she turned out to be Moriarty. I don't know, I like Andrew Scott's Moriarty so much, it would feel wrong if Mary was the "true one", in a sense.

I know what you mean. Then again, it would mean that Mary is even more clever than Moriarty (or who we thought to be Moriarty...), which would be in accordance with this whole "Mary is cleverer than all the others" stuff.
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 12, 2016 11:09 am  #3112


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

We only had the bumbling amateurs till now, didn't we? 


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

April 12, 2016 11:16 am  #3113


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Right. I guess that someone just had to tell us, because during S1 and S2 we just saw and didn't observe. 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 12, 2016 11:21 am  #3114


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Just one thought: Would you all really say that Moriarty was capable of leading a worldwide criminal network? Someone like Magnussen or Mycroft to me seems far more capable of that. This is why I am not adverse to the idea discussed elsewhere that Moriarty indeed was used to lure Sherlock into the game while someone else was pulling the strings in the background. He is brilliant and fascinating, but not necessarily a criminal mastermind. And in the 21st it could indeed be a woman who is behind all that. Just some random thoughts. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 12, 2016 11:26 am  #3115


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Or Mary could be Moriarty´s more level-headed right hand. Colonel Sebastian Moran in female form.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 12, 2016 11:29 am  #3116


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, good point. The Moran we got was just a sort of placeholder in order to get the name into the return episode.  


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 12, 2016 12:05 pm  #3117


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I would like that very much! Actually Andrew as Moriarty was always so fascinating that this thought never occurred to me. He was shown very evil after all. And the visuals were stunning, just think of the shot in TRF in the court room: slightly from downwards, like on a pedestrial, his face so mean with only a look that you think him capable of anything.
The idea of Mary being his right hand seems equally plausible.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

April 12, 2016 12:21 pm  #3118


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

It could even be the other way round: Mary (if she turns out to be evil Mary) could have used him.   Or Moriarty, was a consulting criminal, after all ... Mary could have used his services.   She could have been a client of both Moriary and Sherlock.  It would be kind of ironic that of the two, she ended up using Sherlock to do the assassinating. 

Magnussen is different, I think.  I don't think he really had any desire to be a criminal mastermind - I think he got a kick out of being mainstream and untouchable, manipulating the government and never getting his hands dirty.  He didn't need a criminal network, just information gatherers. 

Mycroft: I don't think given what we've seen that he'd lead a criminal network (although I'm sure he might oversee some dodgy stuff at times).   I think his adoration of the Queen is genuine, and also I don't know if he could be bothered.   However, there may still be more to find out about Mycroft!

Perhaps Irene is more likely: clearly brilliant and manipulative, and on the wrong side of the government.  She also appeared to be a client of Moriarty's .. perhaps she had more power than was obvious.   But I do think her story is a one-off and I also think that we (viewers) need to have some sympathy for her watching ASIB or it doesn't work so well.

Mary ... I think it really depends where they're taking the character, and if the big reveal was in HLV and she's going to be on "our" side now, or if they want to do a double twist and have her masterminding something much bigger all along.  But there is definitely some unsovled mystery with Mary ... something's got to happen.

 

April 12, 2016 12:26 pm  #3119


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think with Moffat there is always the possibility of a double twist. And also of turning a character that was male in Canon into a female. In Doctor Who - which is of course another genre - he has done it even within the same character. So why not change genders between Canon and show? 

Btw, by mentioning CAM and Mycroft I just wanted to point out that with regard to things like organisational talent and cool, rational thinking they might be better suited to run a criminal empire than a mercurial, unpredictable character like Moriarty. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 12, 2016 12:32 pm  #3120


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

nakahara wrote:

Or Mary could be Moriarty´s more level-headed right hand. Colonel Sebastian Moran in female form.

I have always like the idea of Mary as Moran too. 
Although it can't happen because the fandom has already cast Michael Fassbender in the role. 


No seriously.  I would much prefer this to Mary being Moriarty.
 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

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