BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

nakahara · January 3, 2016 11:54 pm

Yes, double agent makes sense, IMHO.

Liberty · January 4, 2016 9:06 am

But I don't understand why you could see Mary as a double agent working for Mycroft, but not as an agent working for Mycroft. If she could be one, then surely she could be the other?

The bit I was referring to, Nakahara, ("you won't love me any more") was when Mary gives John the USB stick. We've speculated about whether there's something more personal to John there. If she'd met him because she'd been sent to watch him (i.e. wasn't a retired assassin/agent who had met him by chance), then that would mean that even her apparent feelings towards him (not just her background) might not have been genuine.

Good point about Mary apparently not watching Sherlock, Raven. I was thinking that she'd been sent to watch John - it was Susi's point about her watching Sherlock (although I think it's a good one - why would Sherlock mention that in his dream if he didn't at least suspect it?). And we know Mary hadn't been "working" for a while because she'd been away on her honeymoon - and possibly she was no longer being employed by Magnussen. Of course, Mycroft could be bluffing (he had to come because John phoned him) because he doesn't want Sherlock to know Mary's watching him - but I don't think so.    It's also possible that Mary contacted Mycroft as well as John.   And also that Sherlock hasn't been in the drug den very long - after all, Janine was in the flat.

The other thing Mycroft could have hired Mary for was to go after Magnussen - which would certainly explain why he warns Sherlock off.   Or maybe she wasn't working for Mycroft at all, ever - but the fact that she is in Sherlock's mind palace definitely raises the question.

I don't think she can be an assassin hired to kill Sherlock - she had any number of opportunities to do so and didn't.   Hired to kill Magnussen, possibly (and that coincided with her own motives), but not Sherlock.

SusiGo · January 4, 2016 9:15 am

If Mycroft has hired Mary, then there is something definitely off about their relationship. She does not behave like an employee at all. She seems to dominate Mycroft, and he meekly acquiesces to her behaviour. This is not the Mycroft we know which for me allows two conclusions:
- She has a hold on him.
- This is not real after all.

Liberty · January 4, 2016 9:22 am

Possibly. I hope it's real, because it makes the episode a bit pointless if it isn't. She may well not be employed by Mycroft at that point (if she was employed to watch John while Sherlock was away, or to go after Magnussen, or even to watch Sherlock, her job is finished - up until a few minutes ago, Sherlock was being sent away for good and Mary was staying behind). I agree that they talked almost more like colleagues than employer and employee - but I suppose you see that to some extent with M and Bond (if that's the analogy they're going for). Maybe she's more of a consulting agent/assassin than an employee? She went freelance, after all! That would fit better with the way Mycroft asks her about her field (although, that would be appropriate for an employer/employee relationship too, if she's meant to be the expert).

besleybean · January 4, 2016 9:57 am

Well forgive me for mentioning it.
But on the commentary, the team do seem to say what I had always thought:
she made mistakes in the past and is trying to make amends...

tonnaree · January 4, 2016 12:56 pm

The team lies, constantly.

My personal take would be that Mary is part of Moriarty's network. I could see her being sent to keep an eye on John to make sure Sherlock was really dead. The thought being that if Sherlock were to contact anyone, it would be John.

besleybean · January 4, 2016 1:09 pm

Well less than a year for us to find out!

Mothonthemantel · January 4, 2016 1:21 pm

I saw the hallucinated scene on the plane where Mary is cleverer than Mycroft and gets into mi5 on the mobile phone as Sherlock being a bit annoyed at Mycroft for not knowing about Mary and that Mary apparently got past the British government and fooled Mycroft too.
That mind palace Victorian Mycroft uses Mary as a spy is maybe Sherlock thinking Mycroft is too clever to be fooled into thinking women can only cook or sew and that Victorian Mycroft would probably use Mary to spy on Sherlock.I also thought it was a bit of a joke about Mary maybe being asked to spy on him for money like John was in pink, and Mart taking it.

Liberty · January 4, 2016 1:34 pm

I don't think the scenes on the plane are hallucinations, though. I think everything that happens there is real (it ties to what we saw at the end of HLV), and that includes Mycroft not being at all surprised at Mary having access to secret government files, and him even asking her opinion on security. He at least must know about Mary (as does Mycroft in the mind palace), even if they haven't worked together.

Tonnaree, yes, she could be working for Moriarty, but that twist wasn't flagged up. In fact, it seemed to me the other way round - the "M" hints for a second that she is, then it becomes clear that it's Mycroft. And Mary isn't one of the "network" of women in the mind palace either.

Mothonthemantel · January 4, 2016 1:38 pm

I think they are hallucinated.Everyone is still behaving oddly and the first and second wake up join up . They find the grave then they go dig it up and the skeleton sits up and attacks Sherlock ? lol . I think the only real scene was the last one.

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 4, 2016 1:38 pm)

Liberty · January 4, 2016 1:55 pm

I think both the plane sections are real. In the last section, Mycroft has the list that Sherlock produced in the first section. The graveyard scene is mind palace (from when Sherlock imagines Watson asking "morphine or cocaine". He seems to slip back into his trance then, and the next wakeup is in a dream-like hospital scene).

besleybean · January 4, 2016 2:02 pm

I agree.

Mothonthemantel · January 4, 2016 2:53 pm

Do you really think Mycroft would be that sentimental or is Sherlock remembering Christmas .Would Mycroft ask Mary for advice on security and could Mary really hack mi5 and find a 120 year ago grave in 2 seconds, or is Sherlock thinking sarcastically Mary could probably do that in 2 seconds .Would John really storm off in a stop when he thought Sherlock might have taken a OD? Or is Sherlock remembering the post shot baker street scene and collapse .Why are they all so OOC ?
That they dug up a grave, the skeleton moved .? I think it is the old did he wake up , ah no still tripping thing.

As for the list Mycroft also asks about it in The Diogenes scene , it may or may not be a real agreement , however it is also a technique used to exit a mind palace or memory book . Bill Gates writes in his book that you need to check it every time you go deeper to make sure you don't get lost. Derren Brown talks about memory retention techniques and using a list etc.

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 4, 2016 2:55 pm)

besleybean · January 4, 2016 3:01 pm

I have no doubt Mary hacked and Mycroft did not seem particularly surprised at her skill.
John stropped off because he thought Sherlock was time wasting on the Victorian case, when they have the more pressing issue of Moriarty to deal with.
The grave scene is imagined.
I am certain the List is real in all scenes.

Last edited by besleybean (January 4, 2016 3:02 pm)

Mothonthemantel · January 4, 2016 4:18 pm

Besley . The scene where Mary hacks takes place in a room a nurse is wandering around Sherlock is on a bed. Therefore it is hallucination. Because we know Sherlock is still on the plane.
The only time Sherlock wakes up is when John says it's time for him to wake up.

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 4, 2016 4:19 pm)

besleybean · January 4, 2016 4:20 pm

Isn't that when she looks up the grave location?
I am absolutely certain she is on the plane when she looks up the case.

Er hang on, confusion...the events ON the plane are real, not hallucination...
Oh yeah(I see now!), otherwise I think we are in agreement

Last edited by besleybean (January 4, 2016 4:21 pm)

SusiGo · January 4, 2016 4:21 pm

Mothonthemantel, I quite agree with you. The first plane scene is very strange. Maybe you want to read what I posted yesterday, about her not having a baby bump in that one and sitting in a position a pregnant women usually does not adopt.

nakahara · January 4, 2016 4:21 pm

Liberty wrote:
But I don't understand why you could see Mary as a double agent working for Mycroft, but not as an agent working for Mycroft. If she could be one, then surely she could be the other?

The bit I was referring to, Nakahara, ("you won't love me any more") was when Mary gives John the USB stick. We've speculated about whether there's something more personal to John there. If she'd met him because she'd been sent to watch him (i.e. wasn't a retired assassin/agent who had met him by chance), then that would mean that even her apparent feelings towards him (not just her background) might not have been genuine.

Double agent simply makes much more sense to me than simply Mycroft´s employee. That would explain to me why she could kill Sherlock with such ease - because she only serves Mycrofts for some goals, but she serves herself or some criminal organisation for the others. Also, being privy to some secret informations thanks to her conection with Mycroft would help her doing some "dirty business" for her own reasons in a big way.

Considering the USB - Mary was saying that John won´t love her anymore when he sees the contents. But if only an information about her employment in Mycroft´s office was there, why would John be angry about that? He is distrustful, but as we already saw, he forgave Mary all the lies and Sherlock´s murder on top of that. Why would he not forgive her spying on him? He could even be chuffed that he´s so irresistible she fell for him instantly.

No, I don´t see that as a reason enough to kill Sherlock over that.

Liberty wrote:
Or maybe she wasn't working for Mycroft at all, ever - but the fact that she is in Sherlock's mind palace definitely raises the question.

At the end of HLV, Mycroft says to Sherlock that England needs him to solve some problem. But in mind-palace, we see that England actually needs Mary.

For me it only raises the question - will Mary replace Sherlock in S4? Will the show be renamed "Mary" eventually?

Liberty wrote:
I don't think she can be an assassin hired to kill Sherlock - she had any number of opportunities to do so and didn't.

Didn´t kill him... yet. We are still not at the end of the story.
Also, there´s this theory that she gave him the drugs to overdose on the tarmac. She was one of the few people who could do it there.

besleybean · January 4, 2016 4:23 pm

You mean she provided him with the drugs, not spiked him with them?
He took them, his decision....

nakahara · January 4, 2016 4:29 pm

Yes, what a good soul - she gets him into the mess, then provides drugs for him to kill himself...
A true saint, really.