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January 3, 2016 7:06 pm  #2621


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

We've been over this several times.
Yes, there could have been ways to show her in a more sympathetic light. It was chosen not to do so.
And as I said repeatedly, good for everybody, for whom this works at face value.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

January 3, 2016 7:09 pm  #2622


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Why Mary is a bully and why her conduct in TAB takes a cake:

http://silentauroriamthereal.tumblr.com/post/136507424810/mary-likes-to-embarrass-people


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

January 3, 2016 7:12 pm  #2623


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think John is totally capable of dealing with any bully...not that I think Mary is one.
In fact presumably John doesn't either.
I'm sure he wouldn't stay with a bully.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 3, 2016 7:14 pm  #2624


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Have you read the meta that nakahara linked?
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 3, 2016 7:16 pm  #2625


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

No and I'm not going to.
I'll see what the show gives us, thank you.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 3, 2016 7:25 pm  #2626


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

She's not shown to be a risk.  We're shown clear reasons why Sherlock is a risk to her in a certain moment, and why she shoots him (not justifying it, just saying that her reason is explained quite clearly, I think).  There's no indication that she'd want to harm Sherlock at any other time.  She's a skilled assassin who has had close access to Sherlock for a long time, and yet she has made no attempt on his life outside of the incident which is explained.    Are we really meant to think that Sherlock, John and Mycroft are just waiting for Mary to kill Sherlock?   I honestly don't think so.  I think we're been shown fairly clearly that they don't see her as a risk. 

Mary also has no reason to want to kill Sherlock.  She's very much in debt to him now. 

I had a quick look at the meta.  I don't think any of us think of Mary as "cute and lovable", thank goodness.   But to say that she's bullying Sherlock by "revealing" that he looked at John's blog - I don't think so at all. 

 

January 3, 2016 7:27 pm  #2627


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think she thought it was quite sweet...she herself enjoyed reading John's blog!


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 3, 2016 7:32 pm  #2628


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

No and I'm not going to.
I'll see what the show gives us, thank you.

Oh, I just thought you did since you replied to nakahara's post. 

Well, I prefer to look at what the show gives me as well. It is my main source of interpretation. This is also why I do not pay too much attention to the commentaries. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 3, 2016 7:35 pm  #2629


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

The commentaries are part of the show...presented by the team.
I  read their interviews and articles.
I like things from the horses' mouths.
Sometimes I have to accept things they say, even though I disagree with them.
Because BBC  Sherlock is their vision and not mine.

 


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 3, 2016 7:40 pm  #2630


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

And sometimes they even lie. 

Like when they said the special would be in a bubble of its own, having no connection with series 3/4. Or when they said that there would be no drug references apart from cigarettes or that Sherlock's past was not important. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 3, 2016 7:45 pm  #2631


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

They are allowed to change their minds!


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 3, 2016 7:45 pm  #2632


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Actually, I do remember various hints that the special would link in to the present day series.  I heard but didn't listen, presumably. 

 

January 3, 2016 7:46 pm  #2633


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

She's not shown to be a risk.  We're shown clear reasons why Sherlock is a risk to her in a certain moment, and why she shoots him (not justifying it, just saying that her reason is explained quite clearly, I think).  There's no indication that she'd want to harm Sherlock at any other time.  She's a skilled assassin who has had close access to Sherlock for a long time, and yet she has made no attempt on his life outside of the incident which is explained.    Are we really meant to think that Sherlock, John and Mycroft are just waiting for Mary to kill Sherlock?   I honestly don't think so. 

Sorry, but what gives you a certainty that Sherlock will not uncover some other of Mary´s dirty secrets in the future so that she would be forced to kill him again?
We know nothing of her past nor of her secrets. Why are you so sure she poises no threat to him now?

Liberty wrote:

I think we're been shown fairly clearly that they don't see her as a risk. 

What scene are you reffering to?

Liberty wrote:

Mary also has no reason to want to kill Sherlock.  She's very much in debt to him now. 

She had absolutely no reason to shoot him in HLV too (we spoke about her non-existing motive in many of the past discussions). She did it anyway.
And although she is in big debt to Sherlock, she acts as if knows nothing about it, being on a high horse and snarky around him again. That´s not how a grateful person lucky to be saved from danger behaves.
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

January 3, 2016 7:49 pm  #2634


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well Mycroft doesn't seem to demand any gratitude form Mary the way he does from Sherlock.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 3, 2016 8:04 pm  #2635


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

An observation from tumblr:

I find it very interesting that after the bride lifts her veil and Moriarty is revealed,he tells Sherlock "You're dreaming" and Sherlock returns to modern times,where Mary is saying the exact same words to him.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 3, 2016 8:06 pm  #2636


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Interesting indeed.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 3, 2016 8:20 pm  #2637


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Nakahara, you don't think she has a motive in HLV, but the episode does present us with one (whether or not we think it's justified is a different issue altogether - and if she didn't have a motive, then why would she do it?).  The things Mary was afraid of were that John would find out and that Magnussen would have her killed.  Neither of those are a risk to her now.  Magnussen is dead, John has forgiven her.   Why would she randomly kill Sherlock now?  Of course there might be other stuff in her past - and her future - which might lead her to doing something unpredictable.   But on the information we've been given, she's not a current risk. 

The scene I'm talking about is in the plane.  Mycroft clearly knows about Mary, yet has been happy for her to be around Sherlock.   There's nothing in that scene telling me that they think she's a risk to him. 

 

January 3, 2016 8:32 pm  #2638


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Mycroft has been played by Irene (with help from Moriarty) in the past.
As Mary has been around much longer, and has been trained (presumably) by the CIA or something similar, I don't think it'd be too far-fetched to assume he's being played by Mary.


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I'd be lost without my blogger.
"It’s not a ‘gang’ show, it’s the Sherlock and John show. It’s about developing their characters and their relationship, and the characters drawn into their orbit.”  Steven Moffat



 
 

January 3, 2016 8:35 pm  #2639


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Though Mycroft never had any direct contact with Irene.
In the end, Mycroft gets back at Moriarty.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 3, 2016 8:35 pm  #2640


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

Nakahara, you don't think she has a motive in HLV, but the episode does present us with one (whether or not we think it's justified is a different issue altogether - and if she didn't have a motive, then why would she do it?).  The things Mary was afraid of were that John would find out and that Magnussen would have her killed.  Neither of those are a risk to her now.  Magnussen is dead, John has forgiven her.   Why would she randomly kill Sherlock now?  Of course there might be other stuff in her past - and her future - which might lead her to doing something unpredictable.   But on the information we've been given, she's not a current risk. 

Liberty, do you really think that Mycroft accepts Mary´s motives for killing Sherlock we were given in HLV?
Like, he is allright that his brother nearly died at Mary´s hand because she was so in love with John and she wanted to keep her past secret from him?
That would mean that Mycroft´s love to his brother is somewhat inferior and less valuable than Mary´s love to John.
Do you really believe that?
Where does the myth of Mycroft being fiercely protective of Sherlock has been born then?

The way I see the scene - Mycroft may be aware that Mary is a secret agent. But he in no way knows Mary is also the person who shot Sherlock. That is inconceivable, IMHO.

Liberty wrote:

The scene I'm talking about is in the plane.  Mycroft clearly knows about Mary, yet has been happy for her to be around Sherlock.   There's nothing in that scene telling me that they think she's a risk to him. 

Mycroft doesn´t seem especially happy that a foreign agent hacked MI5, but he has other concerns in that scene and so he passes that with silence.
Still, in no moment does he seem particularily happy to me.
But your mileage can vary, of course. 
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

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