RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Didn't Sherlock ask John to bring his gun? And John was alone when we first met him-- and I'd imagine that it would be very easy for him to go right back to that mode of behavior-- loner, brooding, bitter. He was pushing everyone away.

True. But tbh, in ASIP, when we first see John on his own, I don't see someone coping well. I see someone very close to the edge, and if I had to do a character description of him then, I think I would put him down as maybe even suicidal. And even if he stayed on his own, why happily follow the invitation to the Christmas dinner? Happy family? In that kind of mood, as a loner, I would stay away from such settings. Would, if at all, seek out Mary alone for that kind of talk. Although, if he planned it, maybe it makes sense to be on the safe side, with Sherlock and others around. Can never be sure how Mary reacts. Though he never seems afraid of Mary.

Last edited by Whisky (September 21, 2015 9:58 pm)

nakahara wrote:

Firstly - Sherlock´s mother is supposed to be a genius too, the boys inherited most of their skills from her. Why wouldn´t she notice that John is living alone, if that was the case? Billy Wiggins could tell with a glance many things about John´s married life from his general appearance and she would be unable to?

Sherlock´s father, on the other hand, is very emphatic and has a great emotional intelligence.

If they took care of Sherlock in a hospital and during his reconvallescence and met John too by that time, they would certainly notice his nervousness, anger and a dark mood... they would notice how he never calls and sends text to his pregnant wife... which would feel very cold from the expectant father. They would not ask if Watsons are okay only during Christmas.

And we never saw how Watsons got to the house of Sherlock´s parents, if they came together or separate. Sherlock´s parents don´t seem to know that Mary is invited only because it´s a chance for John to speak with her. They treat her as John´s wife and nothing in their dialogues indicate they are aware that John´s and Mary´s talk has some special significance. John too, doesn´t seem as if he just got there from the outside.

(TBH, considering all this, the scene is all weird.)

I have several objections. All the things you say stem from your view that 'John and Mary were still together or they parents would have noticed'.

But who told you they didn't notice? We are not shown  what happened at the hospital. We don’t know if his parents have asked before. So their behaviour at Christmas is no way proof that they know they are broken up or that John and Mary aren’t broken up.
 
Sherlock’s mother treats her like John’s wife? May I ask where do you see that? I don’t see her going ‘ah your husband is in the other room’, or ‘do you think your husband wants some tea too’?

 

Dorothy83 wrote:

I have several objections. All the things you say stem from your view that 'John and Mary were still together or they parents would have noticed'.

But who told you they didn't notice? We are not shown  what happened at the hospital. We don’t know if his parents have asked before. So their behaviour at Christmas is no way proof that they know they are broken up or that John and Mary aren’t broken up.
 
Sherlock’s mother treats her like John’s wife? May I ask where do you see that? I don’t see her going ‘ah your husband is in the other room’, or ‘do you think your husband wants some tea too’?
 

No, it´s the other way around - my view that John and Mary are together stem from the details occuring in the Christmas scene that I cited in my previous posts. I didn´t make a theory that Mary and John were together to bend the facts that way. I simply think the scene points to that conclusion.

In my opinion it´s would have been superfluous for Sherlock´s father to ask if Watsons are okay if they discussed the subject before. So they probably didn´t mention it and didn´t notice anything amiss to that moment - or Sherlock´s father really is a moron who forgets things on day-to-day basis.

Concerning Mary and Sherlock´s parents - do you often invite absolutely strange people to your flat, serve them tea, pamper them because they are pregnant.... if Sherlock´s parents don´t treat Mary as John´s wife, who exactly do they take her for? Sherlock´s pregnant fiancee?
 

Dorothy83 wrote:

Liberty wrote:

The whole thing is a bit weird, from the parents' point of view!  Mycroft clearly doesn't "do" Christmas normally, so what's he doing there this year?   Sherlock doesn't seem to go in for it much either.    John, they know, but it's not clear if they've met him much (they didn't even meet him while he was living at 221B with Sherlock for years), or how much they've had to do with Mary, yet they turn up for Christmas too, seemingly not getting on very well. 

I do think the Watsons had a vested interest in keeping their "relationship difficultie"s private.   It would be odd for them to separate at that point: newly married with a baby on the way.  People would want answers, and somebody somewhere might guess too much.  I think it was safer for them to act as if they were still together.   So living together, probably, but in a very strained atmosphere.



(And maybe John, realising this was the point when Sherlock was going to go for Magnussen and sort everything out, decided that he really did want to be with Mary and celebrate it together).

My understanding is that Sherlock must have of course insisted that Mycroft went to the Christmas shindig as well – because of course he needed to get hold of his laptop. And the only way to do that was to set up a situation where Mycroft would drink the beverage that Sherlock got Wiggins to concoct. It would have been a bit weird for Sherlock to just turn up at Mycroft’s house and say ‘yo bro you have to taste this new brew omg it’s rad!!!’
 
The ‘Sherlock doesn’t really go for this thing’ thing is also moot in my opinion – he didn’t go to have a nice time with his family, he went because he had a plan. Obvious. (He is also shown looking like he was thinking and possibly even a bit nervous, while his mum and Mycroft bicker – which to me suggested he was thinking about his plan. He made a deal with the devil after all).

Liberty wrote:

Maybe Sherlock wanted Mary there for Christmas because he planned to get Magnussen and was going to let her know the job was done.  As it is, it turns out to be a different sort of job, and he's taken straight into custody, so tells John to tell Mary. 

Surely he could have just texted her?? He got Mary there so John could reconcile with her. Whether this is because of a plan they have, or just because John was ready to forgive her, I don't know. But Sherlock definitely knew what was going on and definitely planned to get Mary there to meet with John.  Which again makes me convinced John and Mary weren't living together, or they wouldn't have needed to reconcile at the Holmeses' house.

 

Oh, I meant from Sherlock's parents point of view it's strange.  It's obviously set up by Sherlock, but they're not in it.   (Mycroft could be in it.   It does seem strange that he plays his part so readily, and his little speech before he passes out sounds as if he knows something is up). 

Sherlock could have texted Mary, but that would have meant leaving her alone in London at Christmas, which is an odd situation if John and Mary are keeping up a front of being together.   I do think he wanted her and John to reconcile (he's trying to engineer right back in 221B) and I agree, was probably trying to set that up too.  But I can still see him wanting to tell her face to face.   He does tell John to tell her, when he knows he can't, even though it would be obvious to her that Sherlock had made her safe

Dorothy83 wrote:

but just because you don't see things happening on the screen doesn't mean they haven't happened in the story and are being implied by the scenes. The fact that John and Mary are there tells me that Sherlock has at least talked about them to his parents, and his parents know how important John (and therefore his wife) is to Sherlock.

Perhaps they've met them that day - had a conversation, and now Sherlock's mum wants to bring her tea because Mary is heavily pregnant and can't get it herself. Do you only do this with people you’ve known for years?

And if they have seen them before (although I keep thinking Mary hasn't been to the hospital because frankly it would have been ridiculous for her to show up there given that she put Sherlock there and John is furious with her) perhaps they've noticed something but didn't say anything, hence why Sherlock's dad is asking now. Again, they were looking after a very sick and injured son - do you think they were interested in asking what was going on with the Watsons?
 

I agree, Dorothy, but I believe I never disputed those points. I merely pointed out that the scene at Christmas gives me an impression that Sherlock´s parents are unaware about the great severe split between Mary and John and I explained what parts of the scene give me that impression.

Concerning your other points - yes, you are right. I even made a similar argument about Holmeses caring for Sherlock and thus being not involved in Watsons drama yesterday.
 

nakahara wrote:

Dorothy83 wrote:

but just because you don't see things happening on the screen doesn't mean they haven't happened in the story and are being implied by the scenes. The fact that John and Mary are there tells me that Sherlock has at least talked about them to his parents, and his parents know how important John (and therefore his wife) is to Sherlock.

Perhaps they've met them that day - had a conversation, and now Sherlock's mum wants to bring her tea because Mary is heavily pregnant and can't get it herself. Do you only do this with people you’ve known for years?

And if they have seen them before (although I keep thinking Mary hasn't been to the hospital because frankly it would have been ridiculous for her to show up there given that she put Sherlock there and John is furious with her) perhaps they've noticed something but didn't say anything, hence why Sherlock's dad is asking now. Again, they were looking after a very sick and injured son - do you think they were interested in asking what was going on with the Watsons?
 

I agree, Dorothy, but I believe I never disputed those points. I merely pointed out that the scene at Christmas gives me an impression that Sherlock´s parents are unaware about the great severe split between Mary and John and I explained what parts of the scene give me that impression.

Concerning your other points - yes, you are right. I even made a similar argument about Holmeses caring for Sherlock and thus being not involved in Watsons drama yesterday.
 

Yep, I also get the impression they are unaware, but simply because they haven't paid attention to what was going on with the Watsons. Because really, why would they? As I said – they probably haven’t even seen Mary at the hospital. They probably think they are still together – regardless of whether John was living with Mary or not. If he wasn’t, they wouldn’t know.
 

And - John saying 'why does Sherlock believe I'm moving back in', is a clear hint that John ended up doing just that. To me, that's Moffat's way to tell us he did without showing us.

But Sherlock can be wrong about something, too. Although, true, it really sounds like a Moffat hint.

a question: Do we have an overview over "points already discussed about Mary"? would be so useful. I get lost in this long thread... and always think, if something new comes to mind, that we surely had that point before guess my mind isn't really good at remembering...
 

Liberty wrote:

I am terrible at remembering!  I'm sure I'm constantly repeating things.  On the other hand, I'm more than happy for people bring up things that have already been discussed. 

Sherlock doesn't seem to be planning to move John back, so much as to get him and Mary back together.   I wonder if he put the chair there in preparation for the "client" scene with Mary, and also as a hint to John (and us) of what is going on.  (Sherlock has been back and set up the perfume bottle). 

I do wonder about him moving heavy chairs in that condition, though. 

In my headcanon he had Billy do the heavy lifting. 
 

Whisky wrote:

But Sherlock can be wrong about something, too. Although, true, it really sounds like a Moffat hint.

a question: Do we have an overview over "points already discussed about Mary"? would be so useful. I get lost in this long thread... and always think, if something new comes to mind, that we surely had that point before guess my mind isn't really good at remembering...
 

I don't mind going over some of the same points covered previously-- sometimes, we have new folks and it's interesting to get their insights.