RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Here's a VERRRRRY interesting Meta on Mary-- (Link below)
"Mary shot Sherlock.  At the time, it was something extremely out of character.  Soon after we, the audience, and Sherlock begin a frantic attempt at rationalizing this.

Having been given a central Sherlock theme in ASiP, ‘bitterness is a paralytic, love is a much more vicious motivator’, we can then begin to process Mary’s actions through this filter.  The first theory then becomes, she did this out of character thing because of love, her love of John. But, there are a lot of problems with this assessment.  Sherlock’s version from the Baker St confrontation is very thin and doesn’t hold up against even basic scrutiny. Without love as Mary’s motivator we’re left with the idea that she’s just doing her job, it’s nothing personal. Except, this master manipulator, master of disguise can’t hide her smile when she sees Sherlock.  Before and after shooting him, her expression is a barely repressed smile.

So…  Where does that leave us?  Well, she could be some sort of sadist: taking pleasure in murdering others.  

Or, she could be doing this out of love but not out of love for John." 

http://just-sort-of-happened.tumblr.com/post/129429554955/mary-loves-moriarty

Certainly food for thought.
 

I just realised: Mary never says "don't read the USB" she says "don't read it in front of me". So basically she always expected John to read it and not to love her afterwards. She never asks John not to read it. She also is very confident already that he will stop loving her. What really bothers me about it is how she doesn't even put up a fight, like "read it, and I will try to explain" or "just don't read it, please please".
 

But still, what did they do till Christmas? If John only tells her at Christmas if he has read the USB stick... what did they do the time before? To me, it doesn't make sense for them to stay silent all the time (Mary says so), and her thinking John doesn't love her anymore all the time. Wouldn't they just split up or at least take some time out from their relationship? Why stay together till then? Mary without hope, staying with John?

in my headcanon Sherlock wouldn't just invite Mary if John hadn't made a decision already. He wouldn't force him like that, especially over something that has caused him so much pain.

Yes, I would guess that John and Mary are still officially living together and officially a couple.  After all, the reason for any breakup is highly confidential.  I wonder if they are better off keeping a front of being together.   I'm a little bit confused about how much everybody knew and how much they thought other people knew: surely Sherlock had worked out Magnussen's "chain" and Mary's part in it by then, and perhaps didn't want to Magnussen to know if it might be broken (by John and Mary separating) or didn't want him to know that they were on to him and Mary was a client.   I don't know if it's absolutely clear at Appledore how much Magnussen thinks John and Sherlock know.  He talks about the chain, but that could be partly for us (the audience).  Sherlock asking for Mary's file in front of John shows that he knows, but is that supposed a surprise to Magnussen? 

Anyway, I think they have an agreement to stay together (or at least make the appearance of doing so) until the business with Magnussen is sorted out. 

Lola Red wrote:

I have done so in the great majority of my posts, but I will go into more depth assuming that you will have the grace to not disregard everything I say as head canon or circumstances that make everything I say invalid. In short, I think (or at least I assume until we get more data) that everything we have seen till now was genuine. So I think that her love for John and her friendship with Sherlock before HLV was genuine, I think her going into her assassin persona was genuine, I think her "I'm sorry Sherlock, I truly am" is genuine, I think the dangerous vibe she was giving off between the shooting and 221B was genuine, I think Sherlock’s renewed trust in her was genuine, I think her relieve at Christmas and at the plane was genuine. For me, that makes for a deeply conflicted character, one that is capable of shooting a friend to protect her secrets, but also for one that can feel love and friendship for other characters. Of cause there is always interpretation of the facts involved. If I would assume that Mary was planted, never loved John or liked Sherlock, then I would interpret the events of HLV different. But as I don’t here is what I hear and see, starting from the shooting as I think that would be the most interesting for you...

Thank you. I asked for this post not because I wanted to disregard it, but because I wanted to know where you are coming from, to better understand your stance.

I have nothing against your theory on Mary´s behaviour per se, still it´s hard for me to accept the main premise of it, that is:

everything we have seen till now is genuine.

Because if we accept it and disregard any context for the scenes (who is saying what to whom and under which circumstances), then we must assume that these things were meant genuinely too:

"Mrs. Hudson, then what exactly is the point of you!??"

"Is everyone I ever met a psychopath?"
"Yes!"

"Sherlock, one more word and you won´t need morphine!"

"Why is she like that?"
"Because you chose her."

Because you know, if Mary is demasked as a liar and yet we must take it that nothing in her previous image was false because it was not shown to us directly, we could only sense it in context... if we accept Sherlock´s words: "We can trust Mary... she saved my life." at their face value because he did not directly tell us later that he made it all up, then we must take the whole package and presume that even these sentences were meant exactly as they were worded. That means, Mrs. Hudson is only important to Sherlock as his drug-dealer, John would beat injured Sherlock without a flinch, John is surrounded merely by psychopaths, John deliberately chose Mary because she is a psychopath etc.

Whisky wrote:

Of course Sherlock doesn't need to know where John keeps his gun. It's just a feeling - Sherlock takes John to Magnusson, completely unprepared, not having mentioned a word beforehand. That would seem really hard to do if they lived together. Not because Sherlock can't keep silent - he can - but because John would keep asking. Actually, I can't see John staying with Sherlock all that time and them still being so careful with each other, because that's a feeling I get. But of course, it's a feeling, an impression, and I cannot prove it. I get this feeling that John didn't discuss Magnusson or Mary in detail with Sherlock, and I kind of think he would have if he stayed with Sherlock all the time, especially when he is the one being used by Magnusson, and lied to by Mary.
Also John says still "us" to Mary and himself, and he says it in a way that to me says "living together" or at least, "relationship". It just sounds that way to me: "so you realise that Sherlock got us out here to see his mum and dad for a reason?"
 

That´s my impression too. John seems dragged around by Sherlock the way he was at the beginning of S1, when they didn´t know each other yet and seems to be completely confused and out of water. They do not seem like they talked much in months that preceded it and John certainly doesn´t seem like somebody who spent much time by Sherlock´s side untill then. In my opinion Sherlock cured himself out of his injuries in his parents home, taken care by his family and he had just a little contact with John in between. Which seems logical to me. If you were on the verge of dying, wouldn´t your family be the first in line as your caretakers? Would you rather be taken care of by your friend, who at the time faces the biggest crisis in his life?

Last edited by nakahara (September 21, 2015 12:39 pm)

Dorothy83 wrote:

Again, I don't agree at all? John would keep asking? Why would he??? How would he even know what Sherlock is planning to go to Magnussen's place?? John didn't discuss Magnussen because he doesn't need to.

And he says 'us' with Mary - yes, but what is he supposed to say? Sherlock did get them there. Even if they got there separately, Sherlock still invited them. I don't see how this could be an indication that they are/lived still together!

Sherlock´s father asks Sherlock if Watson´s are okay when Mary is sitting in their living room. Ariane´s brilliant transcript states the scene as such:

MR HOLMES: Those two. They all right?
SHERLOCK: Well, you know - they´ve had their ups and downs.

To me, this scene signifies that no one in the Holmes household really knew that John and Mary were estranged - until this moment, in which they could see John and Mary together. John probably didn´t leave his flat and live at Baker Street or with his sister and he definitely was not taking care of Sherlock in the presence of Sherlock´s family, because they definitely would notice that something´s amiss.

Strangely, it seems as if John continued to live with Mary and kept the facade of "happy marriage" in front of the outside world. Which is weird - John is not that good an actor.... but still, how to interpret the above cited scene otherwise?
 

Last edited by nakahara (September 21, 2015 2:34 pm)

Firstly - Sherlock´s mother is supposed to be a genius too, the boys inherited most of their skills from her. Why wouldn´t she notice that John is living alone, if that was the case? Billy Wiggins could tell with a glance many things about John´s married life from his general appearance and she would be unable to?

Sherlock´s father, on the other hand, is very emphatic and has a great emotional intelligence.

If they took care of Sherlock in a hospital and during his reconvallescence and met John too by that time, they would certainly notice his nervousness, anger and a dark mood... they would notice how he never calls and sends text to his pregnant wife... which would feel very cold from the expectant father. They would not ask if Watsons are okay only during Christmas.

And we never saw how Watsons got to the house of Sherlock´s parents, if they came together or separate. Sherlock´s parents don´t seem to know that Mary is invited only because it´s a chance for John to speak with her. They treat her as John´s wife and nothing in their dialogues indicate they are aware that John´s and Mary´s talk has some special significance. John too, doesn´t seem as if he just got there from the outside.

(TBH, considering all this, the scene is all weird.)

nakahara wrote:

Whisky wrote:

Of course Sherlock doesn't need to know where John keeps his gun. It's just a feeling - Sherlock takes John to Magnusson, completely unprepared, not having mentioned a word beforehand. That would seem really hard to do if they lived together. Not because Sherlock can't keep silent - he can - but because John would keep asking. Actually, I can't see John staying with Sherlock all that time and them still being so careful with each other, because that's a feeling I get. But of course, it's a feeling, an impression, and I cannot prove it. I get this feeling that John didn't discuss Magnusson or Mary in detail with Sherlock, and I kind of think he would have if he stayed with Sherlock all the time, especially when he is the one being used by Magnusson, and lied to by Mary.
Also John says still "us" to Mary and himself, and he says it in a way that to me says "living together" or at least, "relationship". It just sounds that way to me: "so you realise that Sherlock got us out here to see his mum and dad for a reason?"
 

That´s my impression too. John seems dragged around by Sherlock the way he was at the beginning of S1, when they didn´t know each other yet and seems to be completely confused and out of water. They do not seem like they talked much in months that preceded it and John certainly doesn´t seem like somebody who spent much time by Sherlock´s side untill then. In my opinion Sherlock cured himself out of his injuries in his parents home, taken care by his family and he had just a little contact with John in between. Which seems logical to me. If you were on the verge of dying, wouldn´t your family be the first in line as your caretakers? Would you rather be taken care of by your friend, who at the time faces the biggest crisis in his life?

Well, how long, exactly was Sherlock out of hospital? Mummy says during HLV that they're celebrating with the whole family together that year, because Sherlock's finally out of hospital--  so, I agree that John probably was estranged from Sherlock during that time, as well as his wife. Maybe he went back to living in a bedsit? 
 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 21, 2015 5:43 pm)