I never saw anyone kidnap Sherlock or force him to take a drug test through coercion. Sherlock whines and and sulks, but he does it of his own free will. I think just the fact that he went to the drug den in the first place states (as does numerous other scenes) that no one can force Sherlock into doing anything he doesn't want to do.

This IS one way to show love. Do you think Sherlock would be any less pouty if John had sat down, held his hand and gently asked him what was wrong? Sherlock would probably be more worried and annoyed than anything else had he tried something like that.

I think this is one of those situations where it's easier to think what would be the right course of action when we are safe in your couches and not in the situation ourselves. Fact remains: Sherlock will do drugs whenever he will do drugs, and no shouting, slapping, begging, crying, hand-holdring or understanding will ever make him do otherwise.

Vhanja wrote:

I never saw anyone kidnap Sherlock or force him to take a drug test through coercion. Sherlock whines and and sulks, but he does it of his own free will. I think just the fact that he went to the drug den in the first place states (as does numerous other scenes) that no one can force Sherlock into doing anything he doesn't want to do.

This IS one way to show love. Do you think Sherlock would be any less pouty if John had sat down, held his hand and gently asked him what was wrong? Sherlock would probably be more worried and annoyed than anything else had he tried something like that.

I think this is one of those situations where it's easier to think what would be the right course of action when we are safe in your couches and not in the situation ourselves. Fact remains: Sherlock will do drugs whenever he will do drugs, and no shouting, slapping, begging, crying, hand-holdring or understanding will ever make him do otherwise.

Err.. actually, I do a lot of Counseling in this area-- so I actually *do* know , from experience, what I'm talking about.  If Sherlock was under the influence, he wasn't capable of making informed consent, was he? Peer pressure, berating someone, bullying-- those are all forms of coercion. Hitting someone is waaaay out of bounds, and actually *harmful*. And that won't actually help the person get off drugs. It'll just make them avoid the person who hit them. 

And about hitting someone to "show them love"-- well, maybe John should hit Mary for all she's done. It would show her how much he loves her, and just wants her to stop harming other people-- because it could ghet her killed, and he loves her too much to see that happen, right?

No? 

Why? 

I think we're too wedded to the idea that it's perfectly okay for a woman to hit a man, and particularly in Molly's case, because she was jilted by Sherlock, and we see that as her getting her own back. I also think there's a tendency to think that Sherlock deserves to be hit-- as much as possible by John and Molly-- because we sometimes (fandom) see them as victims of Sherlock. 

But that's just my opinion, and I may be on Crack! 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (October 1, 2015 6:35 pm)

Yes I agree that was one of those hyper real moments and I'm okay with that. That's why the sequence didn't bother me. However, I still noticed how incredibly stupid that reaction would have been if it had been IRL. 

I don't think there's any evidence for Sherlock being an addict.   He seems to be an occasional user at most.   The drug use in the drug den was planned and part of a case, as he kept trying to explain. Once it's worn off, he hardly even has signs of withdrawal, or cravings.  As has been pointed out, he can deliberately underuse medically needed morphine.   The drug "addiction" seems to be an invention.   Mycroft does seem to think occasional use might be a problem at times of crisis, which suggests there were problems in the past, but during the show, which takes place over several years, there's nothing. 

In that context, I do think John and Molly's intervention is unwarranted and patronising.  You brought up something about Molly which I hadn't thought of before, that she's cruel and even mildly violent to her Sherlock-replacement boyfriend.    I think we tend to sympathise because of her predicament (don't many of us have an unrequited crush on Sherlock too? ;)), but that's masking and excusing her behaviour.  She's not really the sweet girl that we think of.  It's not equal - I can't imagine Sherlock ever hitting her in that way.    He had just recently being so kind to her in TEH too. 

Sherlock seems to be very forgiving sometimes. 

Yes, I agree that we're meant to be OK with it, even applaud it.  I just don't think it's acceptable behaviour, personally.  Sherlock has done nothing to wrong her. And she has made a mistake - he isn't destroying his mind, but is working on a case and in control, as he has explained. 

The writer(s) needed the slapping for the scene after Sherlock was shot. :D
To me the scene at Bart's feels out of character - I feel Molly would need a much more weighty reason to assault Sherlock than just her "concern". I always imagine he should have said something really nasty about her engangement before she lost it. But I also have to agree with Raven about that skewed look at violence.
Maybe we agree with Molly slapping Sherlock because it's what we would like to do so many times during the series: to knock some reason into this guy. ;)

JP wrote:

The writer(s) needed the slapping for the scene after Sherlock was shot. :D
To me the scene at Bart's feels out of character - I feel Molly would need a much more weighty reason to assault Sherlock than just her "concern". I always imagine he should have said something really nasty about her engangement before she lost it. But I also have to agree with Raven about that skewed look at violence.
Maybe we agree with Molly slapping Sherlock because it's what we would like to do so many times during the series: to knock some reason into this guy. ;)

 
I think you're right- and I think Mofftiss just thought it would be funny.

Liberty wrote:

Anyway, I do agree that we're meant to like it, and that it's a set up for the later mind palace scene.  It does seem out of character, but then Molly does stab her boyfriend with a fork.  I hope this isn't her "character development". 

I´m afraid it is. I´m afraid writers act here under a wrong impression that woman is strong and emancipated when she treats men like dirt and when she is physically violent with them (look at the portayal of Irene Adler and you will see similar traits of "strenght"). While, of course, such violence is stupid and it makes Molly look like a b*tch. I don´t like this "development" of her character much, she was much cooler in ASIB when she responded to Sherlock´s rudeness with temperance and yet made it no secret, how much Sherlock´s words hurt her.
 

Interesting.  It doesn't bother me at all.  And it's supposed to be funny, anyway.  I think you're reading too much into it.  
Sherlock may not have physically hurt her before, but he has hurt her.  She hit him because she was angry, something she was likely tempted to do before, but didn't.  Maybe this was a tipping point?
She doesn't have to be complacent all the time or polite all the time.

You also say that testing Sherlock for drugs was not something he consented to...but he still had to do it.  Isn't staying clean something he agreed on? If there's a suspicion he hadn't kept that promise, he had to get tested. Besides, it's not like it was an invasive test.

Liberty wrote:

But he didn't even claim to be clean!  So why test?  And did he promise Molly that he'd be clean (I don't remember that)?  Anyway, it's his business.  And the fact that she's angry doesn't make it OK to hit (although it would certainly lower the crime statistics if that was the case!).  I do agree that it's meant to be funny, and I know I'm translating to real life a little too much, but there it is.

nakahara wrote:

I´m afraid it is. I´m afraid writers act here under a wrong impression that woman is strong and emancipated when she treats men like dirt and when she is physically violent with them (look at the portayal of Irene Adler and you will see similar traits of "strenght"). While, of course, such violence is stupid and it makes Molly look like a b*tch. I don´t like this "development" of her character much, she was much cooler in ASIB when she responded to Sherlock´s rudeness with temperance and yet made it no secret, how much Sherlock´s words hurt her.
 

Yes, I like her response in ASIB.   She's assertive enough to let Sherlock know that he has upset her and show that she disapproves, without being in any way aggressive.
 

I totally agree, Liberty.