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December 26, 2014 1:01 am  #1


Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

I create this thread for any and all confusions, queries and questions regarding all Sherlock episodes. I have a few myself, but seeing as it might be one question per episode, and seeing that they might (or might not) have a simple answer, I thought it would be better to gather them in one thread for dicussions instead of creating one thread for each of them.

Ok, so here are the things that still have me pondering, and I'm not sure if it's lack of writing form Moftiss or it's just something I'm missing.

1. Why does John have nightmares about the war if he doesn't (according to both Holmes brothers) have PTSD?
2. Why would Sherlock not understand the "sentiment" about not being able to put down your dog when Redbeard is still one of his sore spots?
3. When Sherlock gets shot, why is Molly and Anderson his medical experitse in his mind palance, and not John?

I might come up with more later, but these are the ones swirling around in my mind at the moment. 


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December 26, 2014 2:35 am  #2


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

Interesting questions.

These are some ideas that popped into my head after reading your quires...

2. Why would Sherlock not understand the "sentiment" about not being able to put down your dog when Redbeard is still one of his sore spots?

My take:  Perhaps Sherlock is burying his feelings about Redbeard being put down (thus eliminating that emotional response, and the recognition of it in others, to virtually make room for all of his more important (in his view) items that have to to with his work.  He did access those feeling in HLV because he was in a life or death situation and remembering his attatchment to Redbeard was done to save his own life.

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December 26, 2014 2:35 am  #3


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

Vhanja wrote:

2. Why would Sherlock not understand the "sentiment" about not being able to put down your dog when Redbeard is still one of his sore spots?

Sherlock lies about his feelings. Constantly!


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December 26, 2014 8:25 am  #4


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

1. I think it's a trick - we're led into thinking John has PTSD, but actually he misses the danger.   He's dreaming about something that is missing from his life.   It happens again at the beginning of HLV, except that now becomes Sherlock (who meets that need for him) who he's missing. 

3. I don't know, but as it's a life or death situation, it makes sense for him to look at it through Molly's eyes - she's a pathologist, does post mortems and will have seen lots of what killed people - what made the difference between life and death for them.  John's a GP and it's not really his area.  As it's Sherlock's mind palace, I suppose these people aren't there as themselves, but as aspects of Sherlock, and their opinion is what Sherlock thinks their opinion would be.   It's not clear what John did in the army - he may have had experience of gunshots wounds that would be relevant.  However, it would be no use to Sherlock as it's not in Sherlock's mind!  Whereas Sherlock has worked with Molly and talked to her about her work, so putting himself in the position of "how would Molly see this?" might help him to get the view he needs.  Anderson is used to looking at bodies at crime scenes, and his comments are relevant to that (again, it's Sherlock taking Anderson's view).

 

December 26, 2014 11:07 am  #5


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

Thanks, guys, some good thoughts there. I slightly disagree with your take on question 1 though, Liberty.

John might be an adrenalin junkie, but he is also a very goood man. I honestly don't see that he would have nightmares about the war only to start crying because he misses it. (If that was the case, the dreams wouldn't be nightmares). 


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December 26, 2014 11:12 am  #6


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

3. Some ideas on this: I think the the Mind Palace - or we could call it Sherlock's subconscious because this is obviously different from the MP we uses during cases - here consists of several layers or levels or whatever you want to call it. 
He starts on the upper level which is just beneath the surface - Molly and Anderson represent factual knowledge. Molly also stands for trustworthiness and Anderson is the one person who did not know he faked his death and yet believed in him. Not unimportant IMO - John and Lestrade believed he was not a fake but thought he was dead, Molly and Mycroft knew he was alive but Anderson believed in him to the point of obsession. 
The next deeper level shows us Mycroft. At least since TSoT we know that he acts as a sort inner supervisory body whose influence on Sherlock has been formative throughout his youth. On the same level we find Redbeard. Sherlock has suppressed his grief for a long time and only now returns to the happy memories connected with the dog. And on this level we also find Mary, shooting him wearing her wedding dress. No need to go into that here but if there ever was a Freudian hint, we get it here. 
And on the deepest level, even deeper than repressed childhood memories, we find Moriarty in his padded cell. This has been discussed in detail elsewhere. 

So why not John? Because John is more than a medical or forensic expert, he is more than a compass or supervisory body, he is more than a suppressed memory - he is paradoxically on one level with Moriarty. 
Where Moriarty symbolises Sherlock's deepest fears, John stands for the best in him, for the one thing that can bring him back to life. 
Because Molly and Anderson and Mycroft and Redbeard all fail in saving Sherlock's life. Without connecting to his deepest emotions represented by Moriarty and John he would not have been able to come back. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

December 26, 2014 11:23 am  #7


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

Good analysis, SusiGo, it makes sense to me. 

(I would love to read those other analysis of the MP-scene, btw).

Edit:

This got me thinking more about Redbeard. About five years ago, I had to put down my first dog. It was of course devastating, I was crushed and I still miss her. But if someone where to come up to me and say my dog's name ot me, I wouldn't be upset like Sherlock is. The only reason I can think of why someone would be upset just by the name of their dog who died twenty years ago, is if they have suppressed the grief entirely and not dealt with it at all.

If so, that means Sherlock started suppressing his emotions at a surprisingly early age.

Last edited by Vhanja (December 26, 2014 11:33 am)


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December 26, 2014 11:34 am  #8


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

Vhanja wrote:

John might be an adrenalin junkie, but he is also a very goood man. I honestly don't see that he would have nightmares about the war only to start crying because he misses it. (If that was the case, the dreams wouldn't be nightmares). 

John craves danger, that´s true, but at the same time he is a humane, compassionate person. I think he was quite disturbed by the gruesome, cruel nature of the war and by the atrocities he witnessed as a medical man in such conditions. He can´t really cope with things he saw and althrough he surpressed the feelings of disgust while going through such experience, his supressed emotions resurfaced later, through his nightmares and generally made him feel miserable.
 


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December 26, 2014 11:35 am  #9


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

nakahara wrote:

John craves danger, that´s true, but at the same time he is a humane, compassionate person. I think he was quite disturbed by the gruesome, cruel nature of the war and by the atrocities he witnessed as a medical man in such conditions. He can´t really cope with things he saw and althrough he surpressed the feelings of disgust while going through such experience, his supressed emotions resurfaced later, through his nightmares and generally made him feel miserable.
 

Yes, this makes sense to me. I agree with what you are saying. And he can have these feelings without having PTSD.
 


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December 26, 2014 12:01 pm  #10


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

Vhanja wrote:

Good analysis, SusiGo, it makes sense to me. 

(I would love to read those other analysis of the MP-scene, btw).

Edit:

This got me thinking more about Redbeard. About five years ago, I had to put down my first dog. It was of course devastating, I was crushed and I still miss her. But if someone where to come up to me and say my dog's name ot me, I wouldn't be upset like Sherlock is. The only reason I can think of why someone would be upset just by the name of their dog who died twenty years ago, is if they have suppressed the grief entirely and not dealt with it at all.

If so, that means Sherlock started suppressing his emotions at a surprisingly early age.

I think we are shown that Sherlock has learned from Mycroft to deal with feelings by suppressing them (Caring is not an advantage). From what we learn in TSoT, I assumed that Sherlock was devastated by his dog's death and Mycroft told him to deal with it by avoiding and suppressing sentiment. Sherlock must have been very sad at the time of which Mycroft reminds him during the telephone call using this as a warning with regard to Sherlock's feelings for John. 
Redbeard is the symbol for feelings that are healing/positive and simultaneously hurtful - which is quite typical for every sort of affection. It makes you feel good but can become very painful when you lose the person/animal you love. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

December 26, 2014 1:40 pm  #11


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

Vhanja wrote:

Thanks, guys, some good thoughts there. I slightly disagree with your take on question 1 though, Liberty.

John might be an adrenalin junkie, but he is also a very goood man. I honestly don't see that he would have nightmares about the war only to start crying because he misses it. (If that was the case, the dreams wouldn't be nightmares). 

I don't think it's to do with him being good or bad, but about the effect these things have on him.  I think some people ARE energised and perform better in situations which would be very stressful and distressing for others, and I think John might be one of them.  Sherlock picks up on that very early on (violent deaths ....want to see some more?  Oh God, yes), and is happy to drag him off to a murder scene, knowing that John is the right person to do that with.  Mycroft picks up on it when he first meets him  (you're not haunted by the war - you miss it). 

But there's more going on at the beginning too ... he's alone (as he says later), unemployed, no purpose in life, suffering from psychosomatic symptoms - he's not really in a good place, and he's lost something that means something to him.  That's what's behind his distress, I think.  I believe that it's filmed to initially look as if John is distressed by the war and glad to escape it, but I think that after seeing the rest, the sad thing is him waking up alone and directionless. 

I don't think that makes him a bad person - it does make him incredibly useful in certain situations, and a perfect match for Sherlock.

 

December 26, 2014 2:42 pm  #12


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

Yes, I agree wth that. I just thought you meant he was distressed by dreaming of the war because he missed the war itself. I don't think John is the kind of person who dreams about the horror of war only to cry because he misses that.


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December 27, 2014 11:50 pm  #13


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

Ok, so I put this here since I'm not sure where else to put it (this thread can be used for any kind of queries about Sherlock in general, that won't fit with a thread of it's own).

Moffat says that the series takes place in the formative years of Sherlock and John. That they as of now (as of the series), don't really know that they will join in a lifelong partnership. If we follow that thought to the logical conclusion, then the future of Sherlock will be:

1. Sherlock can't be too "humanized" because he's still the arrogant genious when he's in his 60s (or at whatever age the ACD stories takes place)
2. John will move back into 221B seeing as they both live there 20-30 years down the line.
3. Meaning that Mary will also be out of the picture

What do you guys think?


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December 28, 2014 8:12 am  #14


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

1. Sherlock wasn't really that ' inhuman' in Canon, he was just a bit different. I think they will fairly follow that in BBC Sherlock.
2. I've been expecting no 2 to happen for a while and will be frankly disappointed if it doesn't happen. But that largely depends on:
3. The team are a bit tight lipped about the future of Mary...would they keep her in?  I don't know.


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December 28, 2014 8:16 am  #15


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

Yes, I think that's what they're aiming for - that's what I'm expecting to see in the show and I'd be disappointed if they deviated from that.  

However, I used to think of this almost as a prequel, with a younger Sherlock growing into the person he'll be in the ACD stories.   But I'm not so sure - for one thing, they aren't really that young!   Martin is mid-40s, and Benedict's not that far off 40 himself.  Holmes and Watson weren't really that old at the beginning of the stories.  According to wiki, Sherlock was probably born in 1854, so would have been 27 at the beginning!  And 33 at the time of John's marriage.   And on top of that, they're doing some of the same cases that the mature Sherlock of the books did.   So I don't see it so much as a sequel, but as a parallel with a Sherlock who still is developing and maturing even when approaching middle age.

Moftiss have said that The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes was a big influence on them, and that has quite a different feel from the stories - and is more about Sherlock's private emotional life.   He's a version of Holmes who is outwardly closed off, but inwardly feels strong emotions and tries to repress them, and to me, that seems to be the model for Sherlock in the TV series (rather than that Sherlock is just younger and less mature). 

 

December 28, 2014 9:48 pm  #16


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

Ok, so another one I just remembered:

1. If Sherlock was undercover in the drug den, if he was so annoyed by John ruining his undercover operation - why on earth did he talk to John at all in there? If he had layed low and not said a word, John would never have noticed him.


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December 28, 2014 9:50 pm  #17


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

No I think Sherlock was annoyed about John whinging about his drug use!

Last edited by besleybean (December 28, 2014 9:50 pm)


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December 28, 2014 10:03 pm  #18


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

besleybean wrote:

No I think Sherlock was annoyed about John whinging about his drug use!

Well, he would have known that John would be angry about his drug use.
 


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December 28, 2014 10:04 pm  #19


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

I think he was annoyed that John didn't believe he was on a case.  But it seems John had come at a convenient time - it was just about to go public anyway.  (So yes, he could have laid low, but I don't think it was imperative that he did so at that point.  He was pleased to see John and thought, wrongly, that John would trust him).

 

December 28, 2014 10:05 pm  #20


Re: Questions and ponderings about Sherlock

But he wanted his drug habit to be known about, to attract Magnussen.

Sorry, we cross posted!

Last edited by besleybean (December 28, 2014 10:06 pm)


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