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March 9, 2012 10:49 pm  #81


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

kazza, while I'm still online, I'd like to know, why you like the idea of the Rhododendron substance having been used. Nobody else seems to think so.

 

March 9, 2012 11:22 pm  #82


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

sherlocked wrote:

But later a lot of questions would have been asked.

But asked to who? By the time authorities were there, all traces of a body, witnesses, paramedic pretenders would have been gone. And with Molly's and/or Mycroft's help, all details and paperwork could be furnished later on convincingly.

.... but no CSI, when you have a dead body, would be a major glitch

Was there an investigation after a plane full of dead people was left sitting on a runway? Investigations into many 'odd' goings on? No, all would have been explained away by the relevant people. We're happy enough to accept explanations for so many things throughout this series and the last, yet when it comes to this final show, everyone wants plausibility in every detail.
Not that this is a problem because I actually believe Moftiss has almost all details covered with common sense.

In short:
- we're happy to accept the possibility that Molly helps out by fudging documents or supplying fake blood. No investigation results from this.
- we're happy to accept the possibility that Mycroft does similar. No investigation results from this.
So why is it so hard to believe that there's no official investigation into a guy jumping off a building? A lot of incidents involving death, accidents etc in life don't get investigated because all the evidence has been removed/contaminated. By the time anyone with power got to the jump site, most evidence was gone without a trace.


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Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

March 9, 2012 11:27 pm  #83


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

sherlocked wrote:

kazza, while I'm still online, I'd like to know, why you like the idea of the Rhododendron substance having been used. Nobody else seems to think so.

It was actually used in the original canon ( I'll remember where later on, lol) Many (not all) of the 'call back' clues are used as an important clue (even if twisted) through out the series. I see this as a 'polite' thing that Moftiss do.

Once taken, there is no trace of it; unlike a ball that could fall out of either a pocket or an armpit at anytime from climbing the stairs, to grabbing Moriarty, etc. He does put his hand to his mouth late in the game.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

March 9, 2012 11:53 pm  #84


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

So, the 2009 Sherlock Holmes movie got the use of the poison from the originals, too! If you find out, where A.C.D. used it, please post. Makes it even more likely, that MoGiss used it.
As to plausibility issues: Of course we are talking tv here, but, as you say yourself, MoGiss are doing a good job in covering all the bases, and that's exactly my point: It is a lot easier to fake badly injured and half dead, but in need of immediate medical care, than to fake completely dead but whisked away anyway from under the nose of my best friend, who is also a doctor, and who might find the string of events very suspicious later on. The writers of this series are so good, that they can sell (and have sold) almost anything as plausible, but I think, if they have the choice, they might choose the slightly more plausible string of events.
When the episodes of the third season are aired, we all have to read our little theories again and might smile a lot.
Since I am in Germany and it's already past midnight, I will end my posting for now. Here's to a lot of fun arguments to come!

 

March 10, 2012 12:06 am  #85


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

Oh ACD did use it for sure, I will get on that one today. And yes, there will be several things that the RDJ movies have in common with the BBC ones, it's inevitable.
I don't have an issue with whether Sherlock is dead or alive immediately following the jump & I personally don't believe it matters. He didn't get a good look at him or a decent attempt for a pulse.
John isn't suspicious by nature, He's just had an amazing list of odd things happen to him, assassins, court cases, on the run, etc etc. I really cannot see a person suffering PTDS sitting down and searching for any more 'suspicious' things after that list!

To have John accept what has happened at face value is plausible to me.
To have Mycroft & Molly separately take care of the loose threads is plausible to me.

And to go to bed after midnight is plausible to me.
Good night & Thanks for the debate, I love it!




ps. I also find it completely plausible that in a year's time, we'll both be too embarrassed to look back at these pages!!!


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

March 10, 2012 1:40 am  #86


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

I'm already too embarrassed to look back at them!


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March 10, 2012 2:07 am  #87


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

I'm already too embarrassed to look back at them!

Nahhh just hum "The way we were" while you look at them.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

March 10, 2012 10:53 am  #88


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

So it will be for all of us: Same website, next year? If it will be next year, considering all the other employments, our fast rising actors have to fulfill.

kazza, thanks for the links to other theories. Especially one site (final problem) contained a wealth of information. I've not sifted through everything, but I found some VERY interesting ideas about the mind chess going on between M and S on the roof, and what lead finally to M's self destruction. This question was always more interesting to me than how S managed to fake his death, because I think, the general outline of that is clear. Our exchange of arguments yesterday was about details in my opinion. On the main points (Sherlock DID jump, no dummies, dead bodies,masks, lookalikes or clones were involved, something, which was not suspicious to possible witnesses, broke his fall, he had help from the homeless, Molly and Mycroft, He distracted John, so he could not see the actual impact, he might have taken something to mess with his vital signs) I think, we agree. The devil is in the details.

I don't have time now to outline some ideas, those websites gave me about what was going on between M and S, but I might try later tonight. Maybe by then you have found the reference to Rhododendron Ponticum in the original stories. I will try myself, also. Maybe the search function on my kindle will come up with something.

Last edited by sherlocked (March 10, 2012 10:59 am)

 

March 10, 2012 11:12 am  #89


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

sherlocked wrote:

Especially one site (final problem) contained a wealth of information.

Yes nice site, lots of ideas from many sources, a bit condescending for my tastes in the end . I asked a few questions, they were so intent on being right that they did an about face just to say i was stupid!
Quite amusing the lengths people go to just to prove their point.

I hadn't tackled the book yet for the poison, I'll do so now.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

March 10, 2012 5:53 pm  #90


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

I think it is important, as Sherlock says to John earlier, that people see what the want to see i.e. what they expect to see. When he jumps John already really knows what to expect when he finally gets to the body. The fact that he does not see the entire jump from start to finish from the position that Sherlock has made him stand in is, I am sure, important. The mind fills in the gaps with what it 'knows' will happen in between. It is also certain that John has no opportunity to properly feel for a pulse because his hand is pulled quickly away by one of the byestanders.

Maybe rhododendron ponticum is a red herring? But my feeling is that is isn't.


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March 14, 2012 5:00 am  #91


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

On watching the rooftop scene, things I noticed a long time ago but never put into words have now 'come to me in words'.

- Note when Sherlock first gets to the rooftop how he paces around checking both sides of the building as well as the 'front' side where Moriarty sits. The audience is distracted by Moriarty's talk of 'Staying Alive'. No major revelations there, I'm just making note of that for now.
- I am sticking with the theory that Sherlock is intent on driving Moriarty 'as insane as possible'. Everything he says, all his facial expressions all give Moriarty the impression that Sherlock is panicking, is scared when he says he realises he must commit suicide.
- the close face to face interaction shows Sherlock's resolve is solid, he is not backing down from Moriarty's taunt that 'he can't break him'. Moriarty tries his hardest, but Sherlock's gaze never wavers, he totally stares him down. Moriarty (because of his mindset) cannot compete with such resolve; he knows he is beaten.

Back with more right after this short break.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

March 14, 2012 7:23 am  #92


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

OK, again I am all over the place today! Had a break, googled some cumber-news, stared at a few cumber-pics, all that stuff that we old women do to make us feel young and spritely again.

So now I am reading the transcript.
Let's not forget some important points here:

- the newspaper article the day after the court case:
"Star witness Sherlock Holmes was not present for the verdict as in another twist to the case was thrown out of court by the Judge." - so to whoever asked ages ago, "Why didn't Sherlock go to court for the verdict?" That is why. He was ejected from court & seemingly that carries over to the next day. I'm not sure that happens over here, but then I'm no expert on court cases thank heavens!

- it was TWO months until the Rich Brook story is advertised as being in 'Saturday's' paper. That's a long time for Moriarty to set up the story etc. Also, if Sherlock got the gist of ' the fall' that gave HIM two months to plan his actions.

- The lead up story in the paper that John reads at the Diogenes club reads:
“Close Friend Richard Brook Tells All . The article reveals that it is an Exclusive from Kitty Riley and the text reads: “Super-sleuth Sherlock Holmes has today been exposed as a fraud in a revelation that will shock his new found base of adoring fans. // Out-of-work actor Richard Brook revealed exclusively to THE SUN that he was hired by Holmes in an elaborate deception to fool the British public into believing Holmes had above-average ‘detective skills’. // Brook, who has known Holmes for decades and until recently considered him to be a close friend, said he was at first desperate for the money..."

Now straight after that, the conversation goes :
MYCROFT: Someone called Brook. Recognise the name?
JOHN: School friend, maybe?
MYCROFT: Of Sherlock’s?

DERRRRRR Mycroft! It says he was a close friend! Just a slip in continuity but quite amusing.



ok, so the main thing I wanted to say here is that remember, they had a lot of time to set things up, both Sherlock & Moriarty.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

March 14, 2012 8:01 am  #93


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

How do you know it was 2 months before the article was published? Oh wait, did you pause it and look at the dates on the newspapers? But does that mean you think Sherlock knew about the fall way before the scene in Kitty's flat? I always got the impression he worked it all out immediately after that scene.

Also, the bit with Mycroft. How come you think that's a mistake? It had never occured to me before you said it but maybe Mycroft knows it's Moriarty. He's clever enough to work out the Rich Brook reference and he knows Sherlock doesn't have friends, especially close ones. He's just trying to act stupid for John's benefit because he knows what's going on.


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March 14, 2012 8:06 am  #94


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

No.
Remember Sherlock & Moriarty have tea.
The next scene is John at the ATM and the caption on screen says "two months later". Then the car comes for John & takes him to the Diogenes club, where he first sees the 'Saturday's expose" headline.

I'd slightly forgotten that fact for a while. See how getting so tied up in the 'action' makes you forget seeing the smaller details?


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

March 14, 2012 8:10 am  #95


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

"Close Friend Richard Brook Tells All" is what it says in the paper.
Mycroft has read that.
Then when John says " a school friend?" he answers as if to say ' Sherlock has friends? I don't think so'.
So what I mean is if he just read it, why wouldn't he have thought " hang about,what close friend?"

The answer is of course that he knew who it was because he'd already given Moriarty the information needed. Which is what we learn later.

Which is what you said in the last sentence, lol. I must learn to read properly.

Last edited by kazza474 (March 14, 2012 8:11 am)


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

March 14, 2012 3:03 pm  #96


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

I think, that during the three months might be when Mycroft takes Moriarty in and they try to break him, without success and Mycroft 'inadvertantly' divulges all about Sherlock's life to Moriarty. Mycroft arranges for Joh  to meet him at the Diogenes Club and knew that reading the newspaper would draw it to John's attention. I think that he wants John to warn John  about the revelations from Rich Brook. Mycroft is, of course, completely aware that Rich Brook is not an old friend of Sherlock's. Remember in Study in Pink how puzzled Sherlock is by the very mention of the word friend from John, when he says he has just met an old friend of his. Because the two brothers have a 'difficult relationship' Mycroft is aware that he needs to help Sherlock indirectly, certainly John would see it as strange if he started to do otherwise. Mycroft, like Sherlock is probably aware of the link between Rich Brook and Reichenbach, he is no fool and knows there is a link to Moriarty.

Regarding the court case. You are correct in that once Sherlock has been had up for contempt of court he would not be allowed back into the courtroom.

What seems strange to me is that immediately after Lestrade goes after his first failed attempt to get Sherlock to go with them voluntarily, Sherlock says that Moriarty is playing a game and it is one he is not prepared to play i.e. about a photo of his being taken into custody being Moriarty's next move. He even loses his temper with John because he suspects that John's loyalty is wavering, or just to test him out. However he then waits for the police to return with their warrant, when the photos will be taken. Also he and John subsequently go on the run with Sherlock saying that this is what Moriarty wants them to do. So by this stage he is willing to play the game with Moriarty. This is more like the game of chess that the cabbie was talking about!

Some points to think about.


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March 14, 2012 3:04 pm  #97


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

John to warn Sherlock is what I meant to write, duh


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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March 14, 2012 3:46 pm  #98


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

I always thought Mycroft's questioning of Moriarty took place at the end of Baskerville...it's easy to forget but that episode actually ends with Mycroft letting Moriarty go...and he's written Sherlock all over the room and stuff...


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March 20, 2012 1:12 am  #99


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

Well, this is no theory at all and maybe I won't make myself clear enough but anyway I'll try. I'll put some links to youtube, but quality is not very good, so you'll probably prefer to watch this scenes from another source.
I've just rewatched The Reichenbach Fall and there are some things I have noticed this time. Maybe someone has already pointed them out, but I can't remember now, so I'm sorry to waste your time if that's the case.

First of them, just after Jim calls Sherlock "doofus", you can see Sherlock has something small and dark in his hands. But the next time we see him, it's gone. I don't know what it is, maybe his phone? But it doesn't look like it. It could also be the rubber ball. Thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGChdiI1rBI

Other one, just after Sherlock realizes he doesn't have to die, when he is approaching Moriarty, he seems to be playing with something in his left hand, but I can't really see what it is. And there's something that has always bothered me... the way he sings "if I've got you". I mean, it doesn't bother me, it only seems strange in Sherlock (something out of character?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCdSa6uqLSY

And the last one... I've always thought that there has to be something in Sherlock face, in his expression or anything that makes Moriarty realize he has been beaten. Something that makes him change his mind and say that Sherlock is not ordinary and then thank him. When Sherlock says "I may be in the side of the angels etc." there's a glimpse of sunlight and then Moriarty changes his mind and starts to blink. And I don't think it's because what Sherlock says but because what he sees on his face. And tonight I realized how small do Sherlock pupils look at this exact moment. They're almost invisible, two small points, just like they are when we see him "dead" on the ground. May this have some importance? Because Moriarty is the one facing the sun, not Sherlock, and it doesn't make sense that his pupils are so small in that moment. The only thing I can think of if that he had taken some kind of drug (he was a junkie, wasn't he?)... but I don't know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DA834XBdYQ


I hope this wasn't too boring for you...  I'm probably overthinking about all this and I'm sure sometimes I don't make any sense... that's the problem when you are not Sherlock and try to think too much... anyway, thanks for reading!


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March 20, 2012 9:03 am  #100


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

Irene, I noticed the same things. This exchange between M and S is most fascinating - and Sherlock has definitely something in his hands, when he is about to make hand contact with M (the handshake). I can see it very clearly, when I run my dvd in super slo-mo. It's black and metallic . The metallic end has a small hook, which is protruding from his fingers just a tiny bit. It has the size of a key. When M closed hands with S he must feel it.
I don't think, Sherlock is a junkie, though he seems to have issues with drugs on and off, when he is bored and unchallenged. In SiB John and Mrs. H search his rooms in 'all the usual places' for drugs, and S picks up on it immediately; so it is probably not the first time they are doing this. Also the hilarious drugs bust in SiP alludes to a drug history Lestrade is aware of. I belong to the  school of thoughts, which believes in the Rhododendron Ponticom clue, though I'm not entirely sure, what effect he wants to create by taking it. It slows down the cardiac rate and makes for watery eyes and a runny nose, but it certainly doesn't make the pulse disappear. And I think, IF S takes some drug, it's right after M shot himself.
When you run the lab scene in slo-mo, you can see, that S pockets the rubber ball, before he goes to his roof rendezvous with M.

Last edited by sherlocked (March 20, 2012 9:16 am)

 

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