sherlockdabbler1 wrote:

Lots of stuff to ponder in the previous posts.  Just one quick comment about Mrs. Hudson's "dying".  Sherlock texted Moriarty to "come and play".  Moriarty could fake the call to John Watson about Mrs. Hudson to darw John away - "friends protect friends".  That fits with the canonical Sherlock story this episode is largely based on, in which Moriarty gives John Watson a fake mesasge that he's needed back at the inn for a medical emergency, and Holmes lets him go knowing full well this is Moriarty's trick, but he lets him go because he intends to confront Moriarty alone.

But wouldn't he put John in danger then? If he knew that Moriarty was responsible for the fake call, then why let John go? 
 

SusiGo wrote:

I think he organised the call himself to get John out of the way. He knew only too well how John would react but I'm not so sure that Moriarty would have known how to lure John away from Sherlock. 

Yeah, I always thought it was Sherlock behind the phone call. You can see how he's sitting there waiting for it to come in, puts on that I-don't-care act for John to get him to rush out, and then immediately texts Moriarty to get the ball rolling. Perhaps Sherlock hoped to spare John the whole witnessing the fall thing, but when he got to the rooftop and Moriarty wanted to dance and spar around and trade words and kill himself, Sherlock's actual jump was delayed enough that John witnessed the whole thing. Still and all, someone arranged for the biker to knock John down. It's almost like Sherlock not only had his A Plan all worked out, but his B and C Plans as well.

 

Myraya wrote:

ancientsgate wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

I think he organised the call himself to get John out of the way. He knew only too well how John would react but I'm not so sure that Moriarty would have known how to lure John away from Sherlock. 

Yeah, I always thought it was Sherlock behind the phone call. You can see how he's sitting there waiting for it to come in, puts on that I-don't-care act for John to get him to rush out, and then immediately texts Moriarty to get the ball rolling. Perhaps Sherlock hoped to spare John the whole witnessing the fall thing, but when he got to the rooftop and Moriarty wanted to dance and spar around and trade words and kill himself, Sherlock's actual jump was delayed enough that John witnessed the whole thing. Still and all, someone arranged for the biker to knock John down. It's almost like Sherlock not only had his A Plan all worked out, but his B and C Plans as well.

 

I think that everything that happend, happened was exactly the way Sherlock wanted it. He organised the call so he could talk to Moriarty on his own for a bit and he knew that John would come back as quick as he could once he found Mrs. Hudson beeing all right. And then he did this whole "It's all true, I'm so sorry!" thing and jumped in front of John's eyes. It was all inteded, he wanted John to witness his death and believe it was real.

I also assumed that. And am still assuming that. Just the phone call gives me a headache : In "The final problem" it´s definitely Moriarty who sends John away. So, whether I thought that while watching TRF for the first time or not, I think here it will be same. They wouldn´t go against the canon, I think.... They patchwork stories and films, but whenever they used something out of the original stories it was very true to it.

Lily wrote:

I think if Sherlock had not intended for John to see the fall, he would simply not have called him. John didn't know where Sherlock was until Sherlock told him to look up and his first intention was to get into the building. So if Sherlock hadn't called John, John would simply have gone inside and tried to find Sherlock, not having the faintest clue about what was going on on the roof.

We are talking about two different phone calls now, or ?

anjaH_alias wrote:

Lily wrote:

I think if Sherlock had not intended for John to see the fall, he would simply not have called him. John didn't know where Sherlock was until Sherlock told him to look up and his first intention was to get into the building. So if Sherlock hadn't called John, John would simply have gone inside and tried to find Sherlock, not having the faintest clue about what was going on on the roof.

We are talking about two different phone calls now, or ?

I was referring to ancientsgate's suggestion that Sherlock's plan behind the phone call (the first one, when John gets told that Mrs had been shot), so that John wouldn't have to see Sherlock's fall. I think if this would have been his intention, then he would not have called John when he came back to the hospital.
 

anjaH_alias wrote:

I also assumed that. And am still assuming that. Just the phone call gives me a headache : In "The final problem" it´s definitely Moriarty who sends John away. So, whether I thought that while watching TRF for the first time or not, I think here it will be same. They wouldn´t go against the canon, I think.... They patchwork stories and films, but whenever they used something out of the original stories it was very true to it.

I saw an interview on-line that involved Stephan Moffit, his wife (can never remember her name), Benedict Cumberbatch, and the woman in charge of Masterpiece Theater. It was in NY I think. During the course of those questions Stephan Moffit said that they are basing the stories loosely on the original cannon, but that they weren't slaves to it. He said that someone asked him once what they would do when/if they ran out of material from ACD, and he replied that they would just make up new stories. He defended what they did with Irene Adler basically saying that the original story may have been racy at the time but now to todays audience it would be boring. They are changing things to make it work in today';s world while staying true to the spirit of the characters. I took that to mean that just because something happened in the original does not mean it is a recipe for the new stuff. 

Personally, I am very glad that I knew nothing of the ACD story details. I watched Sherlock Holmes with the eyes of a new viewer and the end of TRF was profoundly memorable to me. I thought about that ending for days. I think it's better that I didn't know what was going to happen, and I can't really believe after hearing Stephan Moffit speak that they wouldn't go against the canon. I mean they did with Irene Adler so why not with RTF?
 

I agree that Sherlock arranged the phone call about Mrs. Hudson being shot. As soon as John answers his phone Sherlock send his txt to Moriarty. He was waiting for that moment.

AliceI wrote:

Personally, I am very glad that I knew nothing of the ACD story details. I watched Sherlock Holmes with the eyes of a new viewer and the end of TRF was profoundly memorable to me. I thought about that ending for days.

Thank you. I have never read ACD's work either, so I just watch the show with fresh eyes, with not a care in the world about how it's the same or how it differs from the original. For me, the BBC show is "canon". The only one that matters to me. There was a very active member here at one time who pilloried me for that attitude, but there ya go-- if someone is more interested in original canon, let them stick to it. I'm plenty happy with this modern version. Just my take on that.

And as for thinking about TRF for days, I agree with that too. My fave episode by far. And I'm still thinking about it.

I think it's better that I didn't know what was going to happen, and I can't really believe after hearing Stephan Moffit speak that they wouldn't go against the canon. I mean they did with Irene Adler so why not with RTF? 

After all, Sherlock fell from actual falls (water) in ACD's version. This one was from a building. There's a big difference right there, seems to me.

anjaH_alias wrote:

AliceI wrote:

I agree that Sherlock arranged the phone call about Mrs. Hudson being shot. As soon as John answers his phone Sherlock send his txt to Moriarty. He was waiting for that moment.

No, he was receiving a text from Moriarty some seconds after John left the hospital. He was called to the roof then.
By the way: I also did not know the stories before I saw Sherlock (okay, I read a lot of them in my youth, but nearly forgot most of it - it´s 25 years ago). Now I am reading them again and I am really surprised how true Moffat and Gatis are to the canon. They patchwork the stories, but the pattern, the behaviour, the relationships are very much like in the original stories. So to me it would be a great break if the phone call was not organized by Moriarty. I don´t remember any other break like that in the whole series.
Somebody said here that ASiB is totally different to the Bohemian one. That´s true, the story is different, but the pattern, the soul is still the same. The figures act in the same way as they did in ACD´s, just the story got much more components. I don´t know any situation in "Sherlock" in which the figures do the opposite of what they did in the original stories and especially TRF is very close to the "Final Problem", much more than A Scandal in Belgravia to A Scandal in Bohemia.

I just went back and looked at that sequence and I stand corrected. Sherlock and John were talking about the code and how Moriarty could have left it at the flat. John tapped his fingers on the counter and Sherlock put the pieces together. It was at that point that he texted Moriarty inviting him to come to Bart's rooftop to play.
In the next scene it is still night and John gets a call about Mrs. Hudson, so you could be right that Moriarty arranged the call to get John out of the way, but by the time John got to Baker street it was daylight and the workman was doing his thing in the stairwell with Mrs. Hudson looking on. I'm not sure. Time passed and it seemed to take Moriarity all night to get there. It was morning by the time Sherlock and John were on that roof.
 

I rewatched Reichenbach last night, tho to my shame, I wasn't paying total attention!
But from my memory, this is the sequence:
Before they boys settle down for a night in the lab, Sherlock texts Moriarty with:  I have something of yours etc...
Next morning, John is awoken by the call from ' the paramedics'.
Once he's left, Moriarty(who possibly sees John leave) then texts Sherlock that he's waiting for him.