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October 28, 2012 7:22 pm  #461


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

Just watched the episode and there's so many questions in my head. First, I don't really understand why Moriarty shot himself. What did I miss?

I noticed when Sherlock and the others went to the kidnapped kids' home there was a close-up of Sherlock's hand when he pushed the door open from the glass. Normally I'd think nothing of such a close-up but I just caught my eye. I think it has something to do with him leaving fingerprints all over the house and this will become important in future episodes when he tries to prove he's innocent to the kidnappings.


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October 28, 2012 7:27 pm  #462


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

I never thought of the finger prints.  I thought it was more to do with his shadow, which the little girl may think of when she screams...Moriarty's shadow wouldn't be much different.
Moriarty shot himself because he had a breakdown.  Matters had come to a head with Sherlock and Moriarty thought he had destroyed him, so he had nobody else left to play The Game with.


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October 28, 2012 7:38 pm  #463


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

I actually think that Moriarty shot himself because he thought that was the only way he could beat Sherlock. Otherwise, Sherlock would have gotten the code, signal, whatever from him that would have called off the snipers. Moriarty thought that if he killed himself, Sherlock couldn't get it, and then would have to jump. A do think, thought, that there's an element of the end of the game to it.

Good thought on the fingerprints, DG. I thought it was a) artsy and b) a little reference to later when he shadows holding a gun.

 

November 4, 2012 5:07 pm  #464


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

I agree with veecee. Sherlock had found a move that unmated Moriarty's check and Moriarty rectified it by killing himself.

I think there's a second reason for it as well. Notice that Moriarty killed himself by reversing the gun and shooting himself in the mouth. The gunpowder residue would be all over Sherlock and the reporter would testify he had a motive for killing Richard Brook. This could cast suspicion on Holmes for murder, further motivating him to jump as well. Moriarty aims up, launching the residue all over Sherlock's arms and chest.

Last edited by Lupin (November 4, 2012 5:12 pm)


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Is the foil of a detective a thief or a magician?

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November 4, 2012 5:10 pm  #465


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

One would hope modern forensics wouldn't let Sherlock down on this one...
But actually, even if he'd recorded the conversation, it wouldn't be conclusive.


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November 5, 2012 4:50 am  #466


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

Though it's a bit of a tangent, one may notice that they were on a roof. It would be very difficult for forensics to reconstruct the scene, given that the gunpowder residue would be scattered by the wind and the two had walked all over the roof. Also on a rooftop there's not likely to be witnesses to what happened. They could determine from the gunpowder residue and the hole / burn mark on Moriarty that it was Moriarty's gun that fired, but beyond that it's word against word, I think.


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Is the foil of a detective a thief or a magician?

My Theory on the Fall: http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=21539#p21539
 

November 5, 2012 7:05 am  #467


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

I personally hope modern forensics are much more sophisticated than that, but anyway...
I woke up thinking about all of this.
Several different strands, which I'm desperately trying to pull altogether...
1stly the more practical matters.
Why did Sherlock really ask for a moment of privacy?
Was it actually to stop Moriarty seeing any preparations that were going on ' down below'?  Incidentally I've long wondered if the ' bag lady' we see has a role. Wonder who she is?
Anyhow.  Moriarty wouldn't want to be seen near the edge at' the moment' as obviously witnesses would spot him...but then, did he already know he was gonna top himself?
But practically speaking, he didn't need to see Sherlock hit the pavement, only the Sniper needs to see that.
How much does Mycroft know and how involved is he?
There are a few things, which I'm wondering if they are key.
I love the interim scene, between Lestrade and Sally's visit and the Arrest. Sherlock and John's ' dickhead' conversation...is Sherlock testing John's loyalty?  How much has Sherlock already arranged with(or without) Mycroft and how much does he realise he is seriously going to test John's loyalty? See I don't know if Mycroft/Sherlock set up the Moriarty trap together, but then Sherlock did the fake suicide on his own(Thinking of Irene,),  But then, Mycroft wasn't a target and the Holmes mutual antagonism was well known.  Plus at the cemetery, Sherlock is clean, tidy and shaven...so he's staying somewhere.  Is he with Mycroft?
I've forgotten if there was anything else...

Last edited by besleybean (November 5, 2012 7:06 am)


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November 5, 2012 7:31 pm  #468


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

I'm not sure what you mean by "modern" forensics. In Holmes' day there wasn't even fingerprinting. People were identified by various measures of lengths on their face, for instance.

I think he asked for a moment of privacy to see if the homeless network he had set up outside St. Bart's was in place.

Moriarty did not have to watch the jump but we saw Moriarty look over the ledge on the roof. If Sherlock didn't ask for a moment of privacy, it's plausible to believe that Moriarty would have been beside him if he jumped.


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Is the foil of a detective a thief or a magician?

My Theory on the Fall: http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=21539#p21539
 

November 5, 2012 7:36 pm  #469


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

Modern forensics= now.


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November 6, 2012 1:05 am  #470


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

Well obviously you were referring to now. I just meant that saying modern forensics doesn't mean much to me unless you tell me what sort of technology you have in mind.


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Is the foil of a detective a thief or a magician?

My Theory on the Fall: http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=21539#p21539
 

November 6, 2012 6:53 am  #471


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

I personally don't have any technology in mind, as I'm not a forensic scientist.
But I would certainly hope the required technology is there, to stop false convictions.


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November 6, 2012 7:36 am  #472


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

Lupin wrote:

I agree with veecee. Sherlock had found a move that unmated Moriarty's check and Moriarty rectified it by killing himself.

I think there's a second reason for it as well. Notice that Moriarty killed himself by reversing the gun and shooting himself in the mouth. The gunpowder residue would be all over Sherlock and the reporter would testify he had a motive for killing Richard Brook. This could cast suspicion on Holmes for murder, further motivating him to jump as well. Moriarty aims up, launching the residue all over Sherlock's arms and chest.

Most certainly, killing himself was the ultimate move, the only one Sherlock could not 'better'. The ramifications of his ultimate move weren't under consideration I guess, but you've gotta hand it to him for finding an almost definitive move.
Of course Sherlock, once again outwitted him in making a similar but wiser move in answer. Just no beating that guy.

As for residue, by the time the gun went off, Sherlock & Moriarty had both stepped away from each other. In a more realistic scene there may have been blood splatter but hardly likely there would be much GSR on Sherlock.
Nor do I think this was any added incentive to jump. The jump had been planned for the purpose of getting Sherlock 'out of sight' the best way he knew how, by 'dying'. After the initial shock of Moriarty's actions, Sherlock would have composed himself & stuck to the plan. His main aim being to dismantle the Moriarty web whilst being undercover. The fact that the 'spider' just committed suicide was a mere minor detail in the end.


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Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

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Robert McCloskey
 

November 6, 2012 6:23 pm  #473


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

Forgive me if this has already been answered (and I vaguely remember asking before, but not sure), but here's my nagging question:

Assuming that M's suicide was unforeseen by Sherlock, how exactly does Sherlock expect to fool Moriarty with his "suicide" jump, since it is almost unbelievable that M would not look after Sherlock jumps? Does Sherlock think his plan will unfold so quickly that M won't notice?

Another nagging question: How does Moriarty (and then Sherlock) arrive at the three targets of John, Mrs. Hudson & Lestrade? Why wouldn't either of them include Molly (who M knows has been close to Sherlock) or Mycroft (strained relations but brothers nonetheless)?


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November 6, 2012 6:47 pm  #474


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

In answer to your 1st question:
For me, 2 reasons:
1.  Moriarty wouldn't want to be seen by witnesses.
2.  He didn't need to see Sherlock hit the deck, only the snipers did.
Actually, I may  add :
3.  He didn't credit Sherlock with organising/executing such an audacious plan...which kind of fits in with my answer to your next question.

' The 3 Friends/Targets'.

1.  You kind of answered your own question:  it is universally known that there is no love lost between the Holmes brothers,  After all, Mycroft released Moriarty and gave him info against Sherlock.
2.  Molly is the key, the secret weapon.  Moriarty knew Molly and Sherlock were colleagues and he probably also knew she had the hots for Sherlock.  But he also saw Sherlock treating Molly with total disdain.


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November 6, 2012 6:52 pm  #475


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

besleybean wrote:

But he also saw Sherlock treating Molly with total disdain.

Where exactly did Moriarty see Sherlock doing so? Can't think of any situation where Moriarty was present.


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November 6, 2012 6:56 pm  #476


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

HE heard Sherlock say : 'gay' and knew that was a way of getting at Molly!

Last edited by besleybean (November 6, 2012 6:57 pm)


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November 6, 2012 7:05 pm  #477


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

Even with the "gay" comment, Molly shouldn't be ruled out by Moriarty as a close (in accessability, not emotion)confidant and potential ally to Sherlock. And with Mycroft, I don't buy the "no love lost between the brothers" argument. In the canon, the two Holmes guys work well together, and no indication of a rift is ever given by ACD. If it exists here, it is a deviation by Moftiss. I rather think the Holmes brothers intentionally portray a strain in their relationship that isn't really there.


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November 6, 2012 7:08 pm  #478


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

Ah well you see I think Moriarty does mean close emotionally, he's taunting Sherlock for his human weakness.
I think Moriarty would think Molly shallow enough to reject Sherlock completely.  After all, Sherlock is surprised she still wants to help him.
You may be right on the last point to a certain extent and the writers have said they play on the rift.


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November 6, 2012 7:13 pm  #479


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

So you think Sherlock is emotionally closer to Lestrade than he is his own brother? I can't imagine that Sherlock has any emotional ties to Lestrade, and that really is at the heart of my perplexity over Lestrade as a choice over Molly or Mycroft.


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November 6, 2012 7:38 pm  #480


Re: Go on then...what are your theories?

It possibly does mean ' ready allies'.
I suspect Lestrade is more emotionally tied to Sherlock, than the other way around.
Sherlock certainly considers Lestrade a valued colleague, as he does Molly...but Molly only latterly learns that and I'm not certain Moriarty ever does,


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