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March 6, 2014 2:11 am  #61


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

CuteCumber wrote:

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

I thought the whole point of her blackmail was that she had people in sexual situations? 

I was surprised that was still usable for blackmail today, frankly, but I guess, if they're married...

Agreed^ So she has compromising photos of a 'close' member of the Royal family... in light of recent RL pics leaked of Prince Harry and Duchess Kate, all it would do is embarrass the Queen. I thought a Profumo-like situation involving clients with state-sensitve intel would more likely warrant Mycroft's attention.

Also, don't know if it's book canon, but Guy Ritchie's movie Irene is also a pawn of Moriarty, so it's interesting that Moffat would do the same here. Not something I agree with either btw.
 

It is NOT book canon. In book-canon, Holmes is hired by a King who is a former lover of Irene's to retrieve information of their affair, before Irene can send it to the King's fiance, a princess who is so puritanical (so says the King) that she would end the engagement over this PAST affair.

(That suspicious right there: I know this is Victorian England, but weren't MEN allowed to have affairs? Wouldn't Irene have disgraced herself more?)

The story ends with Irene seeing through a trick Holmes used to get into her house in disguise, and getting away with the information, but sending a letter promising not to use it because she's in love with "a better man" than the King.

We are left to wonder if she ever really had any nefarious intentions. There is a strong sense that she was "done wrong" by the King and when we learn that the King has had her abducted to search for the information, we wonder who the real villain is! I hope people reading at the time saw it that way.

But Irene certainly has no romantic interest in Holmes, and it's doubtful if he has any in her. He has more respect for her than for the King and says so to the King's face. The only thing that might suggest attraction is that he asks for her photograph as payment instead of money. But Watson also sleeps over at Baker Street during that story, despite being married.

I wish the BBC Irene could have been more like her - turning out not to be as bad as was thought. Instead, she kind of turned out to be worse.

I don't understand how Sherlock could hate CAM and be hot for Irene. I know that Irene's particular...practices...theoretically can be practiced in a consensual relationship, but it doesn't seem like that was the case with her and Sherlock. I would think the whole "being dominated" thing would be "bad" to him...like any other criminal tying him up.

I thought CAM was written better as a villain, and they dealt well with the blackmail issue, in that, he preyed on people's WEAKNESSES, of different kinds, and that didn't always mean fear of embarassment. He considered everyone to have SOME pressure point, but he knew not everything that was potentially "a scandal" was a pressure point. Such as, he knew Sherlock wouldn't cooperate with him just to "cover up" his drug habit. The Smallwood pressure point was such because it involved someone under-age.

Re: Duchess Kate - I never heard she was caught doing anything naughty...I always thought she had a reputation for class, decorum, etc. I remember when it was discovered she was pregnant they were praising her for the graceful way she announced it (or held off on announcing it.)

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (March 6, 2014 2:25 am)

 

March 6, 2014 6:39 am  #62


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

My favourite part of SIB was it poking a bit of fun at the royals...you may have gathered, I'm not a fan.


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March 8, 2014 12:40 am  #63


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

I wouldn't call myself "a fan" either - but that tends to make me have the opposite reaction to shows like SiB. I feel like, SO much discreditable information about people in high places (not just the royals) has become public knowledge in recent years...and it doesn't seem to ruin their lives or stop them from doing anything important to them. Yes, they get talked about in a negative way forever, but that calls to mind the old adage about whether there's such a thing as bad publicity. Certainly for people in the entertainment industry. 

So I often can't get invested in rooting for the "hero" trying to cover something up...if it's REALLY bad you think it should be exposed; if it's sex-related, you often feel like "how much harm will it do?" I thought they did a little better job of answering that with CAM.

But I still think there is lot of good material in canon that the Mofftis did NOT mine, as they concentrated heavily on the blackmail plots.

I never heard the Duchess had an affair with a female or did anything really "naughty." I've heard mostly good things about her. William either. I know Harry and Andrew didn't have the best reps.

 

March 8, 2014 8:57 am  #64


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Anything to discredit the royals is fine by me, so we can get rid of them,.


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March 9, 2014 1:30 am  #65


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Assuming the rescue in Pakistan really happened, do you think the implication is that Irene changed her ways (either her criminal or her sexual ways) as a result of her experience with Sherlock?

Or, at least, if she "has dinner" with Sherlock, she would play the damsel who is grateful, as opposed to her usual role?

 

March 9, 2014 8:06 am  #66


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Assuming the rescue in Pakistan really happened, do you think the implication is that Irene changed her ways (either her criminal or her sexual ways) as a result of her experience with Sherlock?

Or, at least, if she "has dinner" with Sherlock, she would play the damsel who is grateful, as opposed to her usual role?

That's an interesting question!   Although I do hate to assume that the rescue sequence
really happened at all,   http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png
  let's assume it did.    One of the things about Irene I really
like in the Canon is how she 1) outsmarts him and then 2) disappears, moves on,
and doesn't look back or obsess about him.   Nicely done, and we don't
hear from her again.


I like to think Irene doesn't change her ways as a result of her experience with Sherlock,
in any fundamental way.   I'd hope she won't play the 'damsel' if/when they ever have 'dinner'.
In fact,  I like the idea that it was her final outsmarting of him (playing to *his*
emotions) which ultimately saved her.  His rescue of her was her final manipulating victory,
a confirmation that she has the upper hand.   *She* got him to do it!   I'd hope she takes
his advice - "Run!" -  and actually disappears,  moves on, and doesn't look back or obsess
about him.  Nicely done, and maybe we don't have to hear from her again.


But, then again,  I'm not Steven Moffat,  the grand manipulator. 
 

 

March 9, 2014 8:17 am  #67


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Working on the S3 evidence:
Irene appeared in Sherlock's Mind Palace 
She sent hin a single red rose, when he was in hiopsital(the latter revealed by Steven at a Q&A).
I don't ever want to see her again and I suspect we won't.


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March 9, 2014 8:23 am  #68


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Let's hope! 

 

March 9, 2014 8:26 am  #69


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Well I base my hope on Canon.


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March 9, 2014 6:41 pm  #70


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

jenosborn wrote:

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Assuming the rescue in Pakistan really happened, do you think the implication is that Irene changed her ways (either her criminal or her sexual ways) as a result of her experience with Sherlock?

Or, at least, if she "has dinner" with Sherlock, she would play the damsel who is grateful, as opposed to her usual role?

That's an interesting question!   Although I do hate to assume that the rescue sequence
really happened at all,   http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png
  let's assume it did.    One of the things about Irene I really
like in the Canon is how she 1) outsmarts him and then 2) disappears, moves on,
and doesn't look back or obsess about him.   Nicely done, and we don't
hear from her again.


I like to think Irene doesn't change her ways as a result of her experience with Sherlock,
in any fundamental way.   I'd hope she won't play the 'damsel' if/when they ever have 'dinner'.
In fact,  I like the idea that it was her final outsmarting of him (playing to *his*
emotions) which ultimately saved her.  His rescue of her was her final manipulating victory,
a confirmation that she has the upper hand.   *She* got him to do it!   I'd hope she takes
his advice - "Run!" -  and actually disappears,  moves on, and doesn't look back or obsess
about him.  Nicely done, and maybe we don't have to hear from her again.


But, then again,  I'm not Steven Moffat,  the grand manipulator. 
 

The canon ending sort of works both ways. On the one hand, she has outsmarted him, but on the other hand, in her own words, she is leaving England for ever due to being "pursued by so formidable an opponent." That carries a sense, not of fear, perhaps, but a sense that she may not feel she has won. Because after all, if her life, acting career, and such, were all in England, then she's losing something and essentially having to start over, perhaps even be "on the run" or "in hiding." So perhaps that's the parallel with the BBC ending.

But it pretty much precludes further contact between her and Holmes. (And really makes you WONDER how all these critics and different adaptations have turned her into basically the herione of the stories.) Though you could imagine her as the heroine of another story. Carol Nelson Douglass has a series of books starring Irene as the detective (sometimes allied with Holmes but she's married to her solicitor husband.)

I like the original Irene better than BBC's, and wish BBC's Irene had stuck to outwitting Sherlock intellectually, rather than trying to seduce him. Although, I think she herself learned the lesson that that would have worked better.

I don't know where the whole dominatrix thing came from. The original Irene probably had some affairs and therefore was far outside the bounds of acceptability for the times...did Moffitiss think a dominatrix was the only thing left that's "out there" enough these days? And would Sherlock really be into that, as a fetish, when kidnapped, tied up, and such is a risk Sherlock faces in dealing with criminals? What she did to him wasn't exactly consensual... I always like to think that he falls in love with John as a natual outgrowth of their trust and friendship. 

I think it would have been nice if Irene had, as in canon, turned out not really to be the bad guy - either being wronged by the person she had supposedly had an affair with, (like in canon) or in fact she was threatening to make the affair known but it was for a sympathetic reason - like she believed it was ok to be with more than one person but everyone needed to be honest about it. And then she could be into  Sherlock while championing Johnlock.

I like the idea that she taunted John about being gay for Sherlock, but ultimately, that seemed like just a game she was playing and the sexual tension between Sherlock and her was what the audiences remembered.

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (March 9, 2014 6:42 pm)

 

March 9, 2014 6:54 pm  #71


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Well I didn't...but I know I'm alone on this.
I don't think Sherlock resoponded sexually to Irene at all, but I know Benedict and Steven say he did.


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March 9, 2014 6:57 pm  #72


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

besleybean wrote:

Well I didn't...but I know I'm alone on this.
I don't think Sherlock resoponded sexually to Irene at all, but I know Benedict and Steven say he did.

When I posed the last question I was recalling someone saying they envisioned Irene "thanking" Sherlock for saving her "at some exotic hotel"....well, I guess not everyone here is a Johnlocker!

My point about wanting to see the royals discredited is that if you feel that way, you're not going to be as inclined to cheer Sherlock on against the blackmailers.

 

March 9, 2014 7:01 pm  #73


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

I will always cheer Sherlock on.


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March 9, 2014 7:56 pm  #74


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

I feel a bit differently about the situation with Irene. It's not so much the question in which way they feel attracted to each other. For example, if Sherlock slept with her after rescuing her in Karachi doesn't really matter because it wouldn't change anything about the story. The point is that he came back to London (meaning to Baker Street, and to John) immediately afterwards.
Sherlock and Irene are fascinated with each other, but their ideas of what life should be like are too different. Irene would never stay in Baker Street to live with Sherlock like John does. She would want to be the dominant one in the relationship, and Sherlock would have to follow her into a wild life where they would go to strange places all over the world and do all sorts of dubious things. In some part of his soul Sherlock is adventurous enough to want that, and then he considers leaving John behind to be with Irene. That was the actual "seduction" Irene probably had in mind. But in the end Sherlock decided against that because ... well, he's really more the stay-at-home type. It's important to him that he can always come home after every adventure, back to the surroundings and the people he's used to. Living with Irene is perhaps something he does in his dreams but not in reality. Only under certain circumstances like in TSOT, where Sherlock fears his connection with John could be in danger because of John's marriage, the thought of Irene comes back because then she suddenly seems "attractive" again.

Last edited by QuiteExtraordinary (March 9, 2014 7:58 pm)


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He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …
http://s7.directupload.net/images/140302/9ovmk4uv.jpg
… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

March 9, 2014 8:50 pm  #75


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

I don't think Sherlock thinks of Irene because he's worried about losing John...he thought of her appropriately because of Hamish.


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March 10, 2014 12:08 am  #76


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:

I feel a bit differently about the situation with Irene. It's not so much the question in which way they feel attracted to each other. For example, if Sherlock slept with her after rescuing her in Karachi doesn't really matter because it wouldn't change anything about the story. The point is that he came back to London (meaning to Baker Street, and to John) immediately afterwards.
Sherlock and Irene are fascinated with each other, but their ideas of what life should be like are too different. Irene would never stay in Baker Street to live with Sherlock like John does. She would want to be the dominant one in the relationship, and Sherlock would have to follow her into a wild life where they would go to strange places all over the world and do all sorts of dubious things. In some part of his soul Sherlock is adventurous enough to want that, and then he considers leaving John behind to be with Irene. That was the actual "seduction" Irene probably had in mind. But in the end Sherlock decided against that because ... well, he's really more the stay-at-home type. It's important to him that he can always come home after every adventure, back to the surroundings and the people he's used to. Living with Irene is perhaps something he does in his dreams but not in reality. Only under certain circumstances like in TSOT, where Sherlock fears his connection with John could be in danger because of John's marriage, the thought of Irene comes back because then she suddenly seems "attractive" again.

I don't think Sherlock would be opposed to going to strange places on adventures or cases...he seems to have done that during the Hiatus. (Die-hard Holmes-Irene shippers believe that canon-Holmes hooked up with Irene during his travels during the Hiatus of canon.)

But I do think Sherlock would want his partner in relationships, sexual and otherwise, to be more...I wouldn't say submissive, because John stands up to him...but willing to follow him, a bit in awe of him. Loyal, like John.  And Irene gives out in the end that she was in awe, but we don't know how reliable that is. Most adaptations of Watson are very willing to play "second fiddle" to Holmes.

But I think the Sherlock-Irene interaction suggests that Sherlock is NOT immune to all sexual feeling (as he is suggested to be in canon, if we take Watson's word). But maybe being "interesting" in how she behaves makes a woman more sexually attractive to him?

 

March 10, 2014 6:53 am  #77


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

I admit I find it a connudrum. Particularly if trying to look at the whole picture, because I'm not certain if Sherlock genuinely likes Janine.
But even looking at Irene and Molly.
At a glance, they seem to be total opposites. Yet I feel he genuinely likes both.
But I do feel they are both vulnerable, in their own ways.
 


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March 10, 2014 8:30 pm  #78


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

There is also the fact that Sherlock felt a very personal, almost moralistic revulsion towards CAM, because of the kind of activity CAM engaged in...he should have felt something similar about Irene, then.

 

March 10, 2014 9:47 pm  #79


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

No cos she wasn't blackmailing...she only used the info from the IT guy, he wouldn't have even known she had...


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March 12, 2014 3:48 pm  #80


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

AuntClara wrote:

I agree Sherlock came to admire Irene for her intelligence, cunning and gamesmanship - she's a worthy opponent - she certainly wasn't boring! Was he in love? Not likely (yet), sentiment is chem defect on the losing side, but I like to think he was finding himself challenged and perplexed that he might actually be experiencing this defect - because something about Irene had sparked it.
I think both of them started out being intrigued by one another's game, the intrigue eventually becoming admiration and respect, and heavens! leading to sentiment. Irene revealed her hand first literally - but Sherlock's actions in assisting her in Karachi - reveals his, perhaps. I can't imagine it was all to fool Mycroft!

 
I think you hit the nail on the head here.

I really just find it hard to believe that Irene is as 'intelligent' as Sherlock. Clearly she is clever but we just haven't seen enough of her in action to 'deduce' that if you will. Now I have only read a Scandal in Bohemia, and seen this episode that is being discussed, so perhaps there are other books that include Irene Adler to reveal more of her character and her abilities. Therefore I think AuntClara nails it when she says that even though Sherlock is aware of the 'chemical defect', even if he didn't fully acknowledge it, he was experiencing feelings for her too.

But that may just be the sentimental side of myself evaluating things.


Couple of biscuits too, if you've got them...
 

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