BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

KeepersPrice · February 20, 2014 6:34 pm

Just wanted to add to my post above that it wasn't until I found this forum and started watching fan vids on Youtube that I realized there were thousands more who were seeing the same things I was seeing in regards to Johnlock. It was nice to find out I was not alone.

SherlocklivesinOH · February 21, 2014 12:19 am

Sherlock is supposed to be more head than heart...you would think there should be a "too evil for me," for him...that he would have some measure of disgust at what Irene was doing. He absolutely HATES CAM...and yet Irene was also not only collecting personal secrets but endangering British security (supposedly). Mycroft didn't care about stopping CAM (still trying to figure that one out); Irene was seen as more of a threat.

Sherlock doesn't necessarily solve crimes because he's morally outraged about them (even in canon there are times he's sympathetic to someone who has committed a crime)...but this is a woman who tried to hurt him and John. In canon, Irene was not too bad of a person. There is some suggestion that the King who was her former lover might have harmed her.

And another thing...if Sherlock had dinner with Irene...I'm surprised CAM never found out. Sherlock being under suveillance might be part of why he doesn't "have dinner" with women or men.

Although Sherlock Holmes having a sex life wouldn't be a big scandal in this era, if it was Irene, CAM could have tried to twist it into "consorting with the enemy." Right or wong, people who associate "personally" with known criminals get investigated...

Zatoichi · February 21, 2014 4:39 am

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
I like to think that Irene spoiled the little chances she might or might not have had by allying with Moriarty.

You mean, this kind of turned Sherlock against her, or made him not trust her? Moriarty threatened John, after all.

I mean up unitl then she was just a dominatrix with some compromising secrets who wanted to stay safe, but at that point she crossed the line of becoming a criminal. She spoiled Mycrofts scheme to keep their source of information safe from the terrorists, which probably resulted in his/her death. She used her knowledge for personal enrichment. And yes, I think Sherlock despises that, not just because Moriarty threatened John (although this might also be contributing). This is not the kind of crime he (or canon Holems) might feel any sympathy for. He might not want her to be dead, he might even cherish some memories of her, but he would never consider a close relationship with someone like that.

Last edited by Zatoichi (February 21, 2014 4:39 am)

besleybean · February 21, 2014 6:46 am

Really?
Well BBC writer and actor seem to think Sherlock was genuinely attracted to Irene, but it would have been disasterous for the world, if they had got together.
Though maybe Sherlock could have kept her in line.

Zatoichi · February 21, 2014 6:49 am

You mean he could have kept her on a leash?

besleybean · February 21, 2014 6:55 am

Oh don't!

Zatoichi · February 21, 2014 7:03 am

Sorry.

besleybean · February 21, 2014 7:16 am

No need for an apology.
That's just me, I'm weird..

SherlocklivesinOH · February 23, 2014 3:09 am

besleybean wrote:
You think Canon and Brett are more Johnlocky than BBC Sherlock?
There's a novelty!

The reason I say this is:

1) BBC Sherlock teases us with many more potential love interests - introduces considerably more sexual tension between Sherlock and Irene than in canon where she outwits him but they really hardly interact (though many adaptations are guilty of that), and BBC also suggests his possible interest in Molly and Janine. In canon, there is NO ONE else significant in Holmes' life, and the only canonical love interest for EITHER is Mary.

2) In canon, they don't fight and snark at each other the way they do hear. Holmes can be blunt to the point of unkindness in criticizing Watson's inability to deduce the way he does. And Watson will sometimes stand up for himself in his response to that...and Watson certainly expresses his disapproval of some of Holmes' more dangerous habits...but their relationship is..."softer" for lack of a better word. There is a sense of mutual caring and protectiveness, and, on Watson's side, hero-worship. And we see them spending time together when not on cases. And there's a fair amount of physical contact (usually done by Holmes).

In some ways, the fact that there IS "Victorian sensibility" in canon makes it easier to imagine Johnlock behind the scenes: just because they're not saying it doesn't mean it isn't happening - they can't say it. In today's media, pretty much anything goes, so if they don't say, you wonder why they don't, if it's happening?

As for the Brett series...the physical contact is there, and well, there's something about Brett's voice. You can hear Holmes talking to Watson in that voice in more...private...moments.

Getting back to Irene, another thing - I don't know if Sherlock has any moralistic feelings about her sex life, or sex in general, but I guess I kind of think that ego would play a role in Sherlock's relationships. He learned to be friends with John in part because John found him brilliant and fascinating. So maybe he'd feel that way about a love interest, too? In other word, he would want a woman to be interested in him because she found him amazing, more so than other guys?

Now, Irene DOES admire his intellect, but she's a...sex worker...by profession. Wouldn't Sherlock ever think, "Well, she has sex with a lot of powerful people, and she probably flatters them too? What makes me different?

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (February 23, 2014 4:02 am)

Zatoichi · February 23, 2014 7:14 am

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
Getting back to Irene, another thing - I don't know if Sherlock has any moralistic feelings about her sex life, or sex in general, but I guess I kind of think that ego would play a role in Sherlock's relationships. He learned to be friends with John in part because John found him brilliant and fascinating. So maybe he'd feel that way about a love interest, too? In other word, he would want a woman to be interested in him because she found him amazing, more so than other guys?

For obvious reasons I like to think that way (the reason being that I'd be a better match for him than Irene if he felt like this ). But then he was very intrigued by all her drama and power-play, wasn't he? Maybe he'd feel bored without being challenged, who will ever know..

As for your last passage, I think he was too far from actually being with her to have such doubts..

besleybean · February 23, 2014 8:47 am

Just an aside...do we know for certain Irene had sex with her clients?
I thought she just tied them up and beat them?

SherlocklivesinOH · February 24, 2014 4:00 am

besleybean wrote:
Just an aside...do we know for certain Irene had sex with her clients?
I thought she just tied them up and beat them?

Presumably they consented...but Sherlock didn't when she beat him. Or maybe he secretly does have those tastes?

I don't know how it works in the UK, but in the US, the selling of sexual favors for money is a crime in itself. They could have arrested her for that without any showing of blackmail or collecting government information. Rightly or wrongly, the current system in the US tends to punish the prostitute more than the "customer."

besleybean · February 24, 2014 6:56 am

Same here, I think.

Willow · February 24, 2014 5:24 pm

In the UK the exchange of money for sex is not, in itself, illegal. There are a number of ancillary offences for things like soliciting, and kerb crawling, but those are somewhat different.

There is nothing in our law to prevent a dominatrix whacking her consenting clients, and there is nothing in our law to prevent a dominatrix having sex with her consenting clients.

So, a bit tricky arresting Irene on those grounds

besleybean · February 24, 2014 6:55 pm

And you have to catch her first!

Davina · February 24, 2014 11:43 pm

Especially with her 'contacts' in the police force!

SherlocklivesinOH · February 25, 2014 2:46 am

I thought the whole point of her blackmail was that she had people in sexual situations?

I was surprised that was still usable for blackmail today, frankly, but I guess, if they're married...

She threatened /offered to "have Sherlock on the desk til he begged for mercy twice"...the begging for mercy would be more literal if it involved beating, but I thought she meant she wanted to, well, "do" Sherlock until it was "so pleasurable it was painful."

Her collaboration with Moriarty is the most disappointing part...because it makes her both more of a bad guy and less of a strong woman (in the sense that a man kind of had to tell her what to do.)

besleybean · February 25, 2014 9:16 am

Yep, she made a bad choice..

CuteCumber · March 3, 2014 7:50 am

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
I thought the whole point of her blackmail was that she had people in sexual situations?

I was surprised that was still usable for blackmail today, frankly, but I guess, if they're married...

Agreed^ So she has compromising photos of a 'close' member of the Royal family... in light of recent RL pics leaked of Prince Harry and Duchess Kate, all it would do is embarrass the Queen. I thought a Profumo-like situation involving clients with state-sensitve intel would more likely warrant Mycroft's attention.

Also, don't know if it's book canon, but Guy Ritchie's movie Irene is also a pawn of Moriarty, so it's interesting that Moffat would do the same here. Not something I agree with either btw.

Last edited by CuteCumber (March 3, 2014 7:51 am)

SherlocklivesinOH · March 6, 2014 2:11 am

CuteCumber wrote:
SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
I thought the whole point of her blackmail was that she had people in sexual situations?

I was surprised that was still usable for blackmail today, frankly, but I guess, if they're married...
Agreed^ So she has compromising photos of a 'close' member of the Royal family... in light of recent RL pics leaked of Prince Harry and Duchess Kate, all it would do is embarrass the Queen. I thought a Profumo-like situation involving clients with state-sensitve intel would more likely warrant Mycroft's attention.

Also, don't know if it's book canon, but Guy Ritchie's movie Irene is also a pawn of Moriarty, so it's interesting that Moffat would do the same here. Not something I agree with either btw.

It is NOT book canon. In book-canon, Holmes is hired by a King who is a former lover of Irene's to retrieve information of their affair, before Irene can send it to the King's fiance, a princess who is so puritanical (so says the King) that she would end the engagement over this PAST affair.

(That suspicious right there: I know this is Victorian England, but weren't MEN allowed to have affairs? Wouldn't Irene have disgraced herself more?)

The story ends with Irene seeing through a trick Holmes used to get into her house in disguise, and getting away with the information, but sending a letter promising not to use it because she's in love with "a better man" than the King.

We are left to wonder if she ever really had any nefarious intentions. There is a strong sense that she was "done wrong" by the King and when we learn that the King has had her abducted to search for the information, we wonder who the real villain is! I hope people reading at the time saw it that way.

But Irene certainly has no romantic interest in Holmes, and it's doubtful if he has any in her. He has more respect for her than for the King and says so to the King's face. The only thing that might suggest attraction is that he asks for her photograph as payment instead of money. But Watson also sleeps over at Baker Street during that story, despite being married.

I wish the BBC Irene could have been more like her - turning out not to be as bad as was thought. Instead, she kind of turned out to be worse.

I don't understand how Sherlock could hate CAM and be hot for Irene. I know that Irene's particular...practices...theoretically can be practiced in a consensual relationship, but it doesn't seem like that was the case with her and Sherlock. I would think the whole "being dominated" thing would be "bad" to him...like any other criminal tying him up.

I thought CAM was written better as a villain, and they dealt well with the blackmail issue, in that, he preyed on people's WEAKNESSES, of different kinds, and that didn't always mean fear of embarassment. He considered everyone to have SOME pressure point, but he knew not everything that was potentially "a scandal" was a pressure point. Such as, he knew Sherlock wouldn't cooperate with him just to "cover up" his drug habit. The Smallwood pressure point was such because it involved someone under-age.

Re: Duchess Kate - I never heard she was caught doing anything naughty...I always thought she had a reputation for class, decorum, etc. I remember when it was discovered she was pregnant they were praising her for the graceful way she announced it (or held off on announcing it.)

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (March 6, 2014 2:25 am)