But I think he's demonstrating it in a sexual way - he strokes his hand and kisses it, then later almost kisses him on the mouth.  It's sinister when he tells Sherlock that he will get used to his wet hands.

(It's very similar to that scene with Lady Smallwood - he takes her hand, he licks her face rather than almost kissing, he talks about his hands being wet ... Sherlock is now in Lady Smallwood's position). 

Last edited by Liberty (November 1, 2014 7:03 pm)

Schmiezi wrote:

How do you connect Irene with the single rose?

The 'W' of Woman on Irene's website is the exact same font and and a similar colour as the W on the card. The black symbol on the card also seems to be related to the wallpaper on her website. So that in combination with someone in production having confirmed that the rose is from Irene seems pretty conclusive to me.



Mary

I meant to say thanks for starting the thread, Susi!  But I was having problems posting when I found it.  Anyway, here are my spoiler posts copied over...

Liberty wrote:

It was an unexpected treat to get more of Magnusson being Magnusson! 

If Moffat said the rose was from Irene, then the W could stand for Woman (although I don't know how she would know he was in hospital - has she been keeping tabs?).  I've been trying to see what the picture is on the card to see if it's upside down or not, but can't make it out.  Can you?

Does Magnusson insinuate Sherlock is gay?  When he mentions woman's hands, do you mean?  I'm going to have to watch it a few times, but I thought Magnusson was hinting that he'd have some sort of (sexual?) control over Sherlock (as with other victims) - "you'll get used to it" ... although that wasn't followed through.   I suppose it could make Sherlock's hate of Magnusson even more personal. 

I wonder why it was left out - due to time, or because it was misleading, or because it was unnecessary?  It's obvious that Magnusson didn't tell the police about Mary and that he does that to keep control, so maybe it was felt that it didn't need to be said. 

I was amused by "musician's hands" coming just after the Elle interview and the "violnist" comment!

Liberty wrote:

Yes, and I think that Sherlock, of all people, would be quite resilient - he wouldn't be so traumatised by Magnusson as some people might be.   Going through John is a much better way to get to Sherlock, and that's the method Magnusson uses.   Mycroft does put Sherlock in horrible situations, so again, Mycroft could maybe withstand Magnusson's creepiness towards Sherlock ... I think that to get to Mycroft, Magnusson would be more likely to threaten Sherlock's life (as he threatens Mary's life to get to John).   So maybe that sexual aspect is redundant (story-wise).  But I thought it did add a little something. 

Magnusson does confirm that Mary came to kill him (rather than try to extract her "files").   At least that's what he thinks.

Liberty wrote:

Oh yes, it's very much an "almost kiss".   I've been rethinking and I don't think Magnusson is using the sexual stuff to get to Mycroft through Sherlock.   He has the big, serious threats that he uses to manipulate people (publishing the letters, etc.).   The sexual stuff is just for his own amusement - I think he enjoys that power.  So that's what's going on in that scene - Magnusson enjoying his power over Sherlock, and letting him know what position he's in.  I was comparing it the face-flicking, but it's a lot more like the face-licking - it has that stronger sexual element. 

(Yes, SusiGo, I think the words about Mary are the actual threat - he's letting Sherlock know that he has control with valuable information, and leaves him to think why that information is valuable to him and work out that he's going to control Sherlock through John and Mary.   I suppose it also highlights that some of his information is just in his head, too.)

It's different seeing it on its own like that, but as part of HLV ... I think it might have been one two many incidents of Sherlock as a victim - he is SO abused during that episode.    But it would have made a nice little trilogy of hospital visits, with Mary and Janine, all bringing a level of threat.

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:

The 'sexual' approach reminds me of how Irene plays Sherlock... 

In my own personal opinion Irene uses her sexuality to fluster him, as a 'good' dominatrix would; get into the sub's head and use their insecurity against them. Irene using sex to do that...

 

That's an interesting thought - Irene knows what people like, and Magnusson knows what they don't like!  Irene is using sex to make them feel good (and therefore reveal information), Magnusson is using it to make them feel bad.  
 

Together with the deleted scene the scene in the "restaurant" could be in Sherlock's mind palace?
Would also explain why it's so surreal. 
(I also still have problems with that scene.....)

Hmm that is likely that it was a mind palace scene.

Sherlock is in a morphine daze, and can't we conclude that during the Mind Palace scenes we would see things through his eyes?

Which also makes me think of when Sherlock puts on Magnussens glasses and it looks like we are putting them on? 

Obviously humour doesn't travel well on the internet...er yes, I KNOW it was a restaurant!
Ok, so how does this go then:  we KNOW Sherlock left the hospital(cos Greg and John find the empty bed)...so what:  he goes straight to the The Empty House?
The whole point of meeting CAM is to plan the exchange of the lap top...so of course it really happened...Sherlock asks for an invite to Appledore....why do we think the helicopter arrives at the cottage?!

Last edited by besleybean (November 1, 2014 9:10 pm)

SolarSystem wrote:

Mattlocked wrote:

Together with the deleted scene the scene in the "restaurant" could be in Sherlock's mind palace?
Would also explain why it's so surreal.

But I don't think that the deleted scene was supposed to be a mind palace scene. It is shot in the exact same style as the scene when Mary appears at Sherlock's hospital bed, so for me it would mean then that this scene is a mind palace scene, as well. And I really doubt that. So, Mary and CAM in Sherlock's hospital room are real, the restaurant scene...not so much.
 

 
Dearest Solar, I meant it exactly the other way round! 
Restaurant=mind palace.

Wait, now I see I didn't make myself clear:

"Together with the deleted scene the scene in the "restaurant" could be in Sherlock's mind palace?..."

I didn't mean both of the scenes could have been in the mind palace.
What I meant was if the scene in the hospital wouldn't have been deleted, the restaurant/canteen scene could have taken place in Sherlock's mind palace.
Hospital with CAM and later with Mary were "real" scenes IMO

Doesn't sound much clearer..... 

No, it doesn't, love. But I understand what you mean - I've meant exactly the same thing.
(That was meant for Mattlocked.)
 

Last edited by SolarSystem (November 1, 2014 9:30 pm)