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October 27, 2014 8:53 am  #1


Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

So I noticed that while not being the most popular one this episode is clearly underrepresented. What bothered me then and still bothers me now is why Mycroft lets Moriarty go.

He has a mad and highly dangerous criminal on his hands who is clearly completely obsessed with his brother. In the third (and most probably but by no means definite) explanation we get in TEH Sherlock wants us to believe that everything has been one big plan created by him and Mycroft. Frankly, I do not believe this.

For one thing, if you take Sherlock's reaction at Dewer's Hollow when he is under the influence of the drug and sees Moriarty's contorted face we get a hint that he is truly afraid of him. True, the drug provokes hallucinations but it is no coincidence that he sees Moriarty and not a gigantic hound. It reminds me a bit of room 101 in "Nineteen Eighty-Four" where everyone is confronted with their deepest fears.

The other thing is - does Sherlock know Mycroft has imprisoned Moriarty? We never get a hint that he and Mycroft are cooperating in this. Or how they managed to catch Moriarty after his triumph over Mycroft in ASiB? The only time we see him getting arrested, he gives himself up to the police. Strange, isn't it? 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

October 27, 2014 9:21 am  #2


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

It's all a bit strange, indeed, and I don't have any answers to your questions.
About Sherlock knowing or not knowing that Mycroft has imprisoned Moriarty and the Holmes brothers having planned this together: to me it would only make sense if they had planned this within hours after the incident at Dewer's Hollow, some time between that evening and the next morning. We know that they are very clever, so I guess it is imaginable that it would only take them a couple of hours to plan something like this.
Still, something doesn't feel right about this explanation to me. And it might get even more weird in the Special or S4, should Moriarty indeed still be alive. 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

October 27, 2014 9:26 am  #3


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

I somehow got the impression that Moriarty's imprisonment was parallel to the Baskerville case and that Mycroft let him free when the case was solved. Of course it is just a feeling but for me Sherlock seeing Moriarty in his mind and Moriarty carving his name and being released happened at about the same time. 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (October 27, 2014 9:33 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

October 27, 2014 9:35 am  #4


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

Yeah, well, we see them talking on the phone in THoB twice, of course they talk about something completely different, but it might help to make us believe that they are talking on the phone on a more or less regular basis (during that episode). But I agree, that part of the explanation in TEH comes pretty much out of the blue. It sort of makes sense, but there is a lot of stuff in it that we just have to believe without any visible evidence. 

Good question about Lestrade. I'm sure he didn't know that Sherlock and John were there, so why indeed did Mycroft send him there? Maybe to make sure that Sherlock stayed there long enough for Mycroft to arrange a deal with Moriarty? I don't know, it's all a bit... weird. 

...and now you edited your post, Susi, and part of my answer doesn't make any sense anymore. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cry.png

Last edited by SolarSystem (October 27, 2014 9:36 am)


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

October 27, 2014 9:41 am  #5


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

Yes, and in this regard the episode is underrrated IMO. We should remember that it was written by Mark who might well have written a key scene for his own character. In the light of what we see it seems quite improbable to me that he and Sherlock planned the release during the Baskerville case. There is no hint at all that Sherlock knew what was going on.
Assuming that Mycroft is as powerful as we are constantly told, he could have held Moriarty until the end of his days and destroyed his network, maybe with Sherlock's help. It does not make sense to release him so he can go on in his crusade against Sherlock. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

October 27, 2014 9:44 am  #6


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

(Just saying that I feel unable to participate here without waving with "M-Theory" all the time, and that is another topic and I'm not yet ready to do that, so, sorry, girls!  )


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October 27, 2014 9:46 am  #7


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

No problem, I am patiently waiting for that topic. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

October 27, 2014 10:03 am  #8


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

I'm also waiting, Harriet. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


Susi, maybe Sherlock and Mycroft both wanted to somehow outsmart Moriarty. Holding him in a cell until the end of his days might not have felt like a real victory. Personally, I don't like the idea that the Holmes boys might be too proud to just keep Moriarty in a cell and be done with him. Do they both really need to play the game? Do they need to 'win' on their own terms?


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

October 27, 2014 10:08 am  #9


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

Yes, that is in diea I do not like either and which IMO is quite out of character for Mycroft. And the fact that he worries constantly about Sherlock and that his loss would break his heart does not exactly serve to convince me that this was their plan. I cannot believe that he approved of Sherlock playing the game with Moriarty. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

October 27, 2014 10:37 am  #10


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

Let's face it, from all we know at this point it was unnecessary to let Moriarty walk free and then put him on trial to let him walk free again. Why not leave him rotting in prison in the first place? Because that's not very appealing for a tv audience, right. But of course they could have played the whole thing completely different from the start - or at least after ASiB. There was no real reason to have him in prison at the end of Hounds, was there? Maybe apart from the dramatic effect. 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

October 27, 2014 10:41 am  #11


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

Either that or there is a long-term plot strand we do not know of yet. 

I just noticed that in TRF we have no scene with Sherlock and Mycroft, not even a phone call. Instead John serves as an intermediary between the brothers. 
And that made me think again about the meeting between John and Mycroft in which Mycroft tells him about interrogating Moriarty and paying with information about Sherlock. He lets John at least believe that Sherlock does not know about the deal. And we never see John telling Sherlock what his brother did because in the next scene we get their dispute at the lab. We see John coming in and get the whole conversation from the start and Mycroft is never mentioned. 

So there are two possibilities IMO: Sherlock and Mycroft were in this together and manipulated John the whole time. Or Mycroft has some secret agenda and what he tells John in TRF is the truth. 

Last edited by SusiGo (October 27, 2014 10:53 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

October 27, 2014 11:51 am  #12


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

Let´s not forget that Moriarty is not merely one person - it is also a criminal organisation involving many members. Organisation strong enough, so that it can cause mayhem through breaking into Pentonville Prison, Bank of England and the Tower in a few minutes and yet remain completely unharmed, with it´s active members undetected.

Holding up Moriarty in a cell, with a knowledge that his minions would continue his dirty work and will be able to get him out of the cell in time through some collaborators, would be completely pointless. So letting Moriarty go and to prepare some plan of how to eliminate him and shutdown his organisation as well would be a wiser solution.

We don´t see this in THoB yet, because the resolution to end Moriarty´s organisation through some devilish plan had to take place close afterwards. In TRF we see the situation through John´s eyes - and since John was deliberately left out of this, he doesn´t notice the slight signs that such a drama is taking place behind his back. What´s more, Holmes Brothers outwardly pretend that a dispute is going on between them in TRF, so as to mask their secret dealings about Moriarty and his gang from the public and from their friends as well.

As to why Mycroft allows his brother to be endangered by the dangerous game between him and Moriarty in TRF - both brothers know that of all existing things Sherlock has a strongest appeal to Moriarty, so Sherlock probably volunteered to act as a bait (which also conforms to his own, reckless personality). Also, their plan of eliminating Moriarty´s organisation was obviously not firmly delineated and it had to undergo many changes according to Moriarty´s unpredictable moves. Hence, they had multiply plans for everything - like 13 ways for Sherlock of how to escape from the roof at St. Bart´s.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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October 27, 2014 12:06 pm  #13


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

I don't know the answers, but I do know they needed to destroy Moriarty's network - it functions without him, and even at Moriarty's trial, Sherlock makes that point about Moriarty not being a man, but a spider (from the books).  I don't think it was ever as simple as just getting Moriarty incarcerated (legally or illegally), because the network worked without him (as it did after his death, if he died - Sherlock still had to work for two years to destroy it and still couldn't contact John).   Sherlock and Moriarty never were really two individuals facing off.  They both had a network behind them.

Sherlock did need to have been in on most things, didn't he?  I'd thought he would have known (possibly not at the time, but afterwards) what information Mycroft was feeding Moriarty (he knows what has been printed in the paper).   Maybe the reason for having Moriarty in prison in the first place was to set that up - maybe not the initial reason - maybe initially Mycroft thought they could get information about the network that way.   But it does become a case of setting up Moriarty - feeding him information and making him think he's in control, and then drawing him out at the beginning of TRF, letting him go to trial knowing he won't be convicted, etc.  

As in ASIB, I think John is kept in the dark throughout, but I don't think Sherlock is.   Mycroft is deliberately misleading John. 

Edit - I wrote this before you posted, Nakahara, but yes, I agree that they are using Sherlock as bait ... Sherlock is putting himself out there deliberately for that purpose.   But also that Sherlock would have been continually at risk if they'd kept Moriarty incarcerated, because he'd have been the main target - Moriarty and his network work mainly by threatening the people their victims care about, so to get to Mycroft, Sherlock would have been used.   It wasn't safer to have Moriarty locked away, but more dangerous.  (Sherlock had good reason to be scared of Moriarty, especially when Moriarty had virtually outwitted him at the end of S1). 

 

Last edited by Liberty (October 27, 2014 12:24 pm)

 

October 27, 2014 12:20 pm  #14


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

I just want to state once again for the record that I will be seriously dissapointed if Moriarty is really still alive.


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October 27, 2014 12:43 pm  #15


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

tonnaree, they will have to give as a really good explanation if he indeed is still alive. It might make a bit of sense when you think about Moriarty's "I am you", but apart from that... I dunno... 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

October 27, 2014 12:51 pm  #16


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

The creators have said more than once that there is an arc to the show as a whole and I am quite sure that something important will happen to Mycroft/be revealed about him in the special and/or series 3.

Because one has to look at the development of his character as a whole and in series 3 there is a big blind spot regarding Mycroft - his attitude towards Mary and Magnussen; John, Janine, Mary, Lestrade all visiting Sherlock in hospital while we never see his reaction to Sherlock being shot; his possible role in the (faked) return of Moriarty; the mysterious "other one" who by no means has to be a family member … On the other hand his love for Sherlock is shown more blatantly than before. This is going to be very interesting. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

October 28, 2014 12:47 pm  #17


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

I cannot really believe Sherlock was in on the TRF plan all along. The interactions with John feel all far more real than they should.
Not the one on the roof, but Sherlock's reaction to John reading the newspaper story, and Sherlock's reaction to Kitty when he realises she went to Moriarty. Sherlock seems upset about the newspaper article - he wouldn't be if Mycroft let him know about the Moriarty interrogation, because then he would have known what was coming. He seems to catch up pretty quick, but running away with John and all that, does he do all this just for misleading John and the public? That would be TRF with Sherlock just playing a rehearsed role for John all the time, and it would bore me immensely.

I'd really love an episode/series that has more Mycroft in the centre. He's far more exciting than more of Mary or Moriarty.
 

Last edited by Whisky (October 28, 2014 12:50 pm)


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October 28, 2014 12:52 pm  #18


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

I agree (apart from the roof scene but that is for another thread). I always felt that his confrontation with Richard Brook was genuine. The scene still makes my hair stand on end. His shock seems very real and his abrupt reaction in the street followed by the scene in the lab do confirm this IMO. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

October 28, 2014 12:55 pm  #19


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

It has seemed to me for some time now that Hopes victims were not random, TGG, ASIB, TRF TEH and HLV were as much about attacking / discrediting /embarrassing / gaining power over Mycroft as anything via Sherlock.
During Hound Mycroft was trading info on Sherlock to Moriarty to make him talk...I thought after TRF that Sherlock knew that..explaining the Mycroft owes me one comment..and why Sherlock had Moriarty on his mind during Hound.
Q is what did Moriarty talk about in return...leading to his release...
Maybe he told Mycroft about the 'organisation' he was involved in..thus Mycroft let Jim go...using both Sherlock and Jim Moriarty as bait/puppets trying to get to ..or in a game with....whatever power/organisation is behind Jim Moriarty and trying to take over Mycrofts position as the most powerful man in Britain.

 

October 28, 2014 1:03 pm  #20


Re: Coming back to HoB - the last scene in the light of series 3

Oh, I believe the "Richard Brook" appearance in Kitty´s flat was a real shock for Sherlock even if Sherlock and Mycroft already had a "Moriarty elimination plan". As I mentioned above, Moriarty´s moves were very unpredictable and the Holmes Brothers had to adjust their plan to them quite quickly. This Richard Brook confrontation was one of such crazy, strange moves that Sherlock had no chance to predict, hence the aura of strangeness and shock we could feel in the scene.

Still, when he ran away from Baker Street 221B with John in front of police´s noses, it was a deliberate staging of a desperate escape from Sherlock. He mentioned it even when he told John: "I am doing exactly what Moriarty wants. I´m running away." If you think about it, Sherlock could disappear much sooner - he was forewarned by Lestrade that they are coming for him and he had no logical reason to wait, let himself be arrested and escape only after all that. The only reason for his illogical waiting is that he wanted to make a grand scene when escaping, thus persuading Moriarty that he is really desperate and at his wits end.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

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