BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Out?

Lilith · October 18, 2014 9:23 pm

Thing is, Sherlock is not exactly heartthrob material. That doesn't mean he has no emotions. But Benedict's reply was to that kinda question "oh he is so sexy, you think he would be interested in me" Which in itself is a pretty naive question, no? I don't want to ridicule teenagers and their dreams, i have been a teenager myself and i do remember what that was like. But it strikes me that such kind of a question would only be asked by someone being really young, no? And somehow i cannot really imagine that he would actually fire such a reply to the asking person, maybe something like "i guess no." thinking the rest which he has spoken here

miriel68 · October 19, 2014 7:35 am

I am late to the discussion, because I have been very busy this week but... wow. The reaction to the interview makes for a fascinating read and gives much insight to the mentality of the fandom - a part of it, that is.

There are several interesting points about it, some have been mentioned before:
1. We don't actually know what he said exactly. This is very much a fabularised interview framed by the journalist and his comments. And while the people protest against B. remarks about "florals" ladies, no one seems to point out that may be it wasn't fair to put something that was definitely NOT a part of the interview into the text.

2. Poor florals ladies.... and there were suggestions that were they young and attractive he would have reacted differently. This is bull****t. While I think that generally asking him for a pic or an autograph in non-official situations is rude and intruding, he is generally very gracious and generous about it. However, there have been several occasions when he refused to do it when in restaurant (and China fans almost killed him for this, recently, if I remember correctly). Let me say that it is rude to the extreme to interrupt someone during a conversation & meal. Don't we teach our children: "don't interrupt the others when they are talking?"

3. Teenagers / middle age fans. May be I am old fashioned, but middle aged unappropriate fan behavior is for me more cringe-worthy than teenagers unappropriate behaviour. After all, aren't we supposed to acquire some wisdom or at least sense of proportion in time?

4. Fandom. It always baffles me why the fan fiction authors feel so entitled to the material they write. I have to ask for permission and eventually pay for every image/pic/long quotation I want to include in my text/work, yet the fanfiction feels not only free to take the likeness of real people and use it for (quite often) explicitly erotic/porn images and to write all kind of kinks about them (but there are fics about BC as well, if I am right) but also pretends that the people who are used - this is the exact word here - for their, arguably creative, pleasure, should be pleased about it, don't have the right to dislike it and are offensive if they dare to express their feelings.

5. All this protesting and pointing out how importants and wonderfully creative the fanfic is.... well, I read it sometimes, I even wrote a couple of stories myself (only shared it with my friends, though). Nevertheless the waste majority of it is artistically worthless (although I am reading now a lenghty STiD fic which is far better than many published tie-ins and spin offs) and the propensity for the graphic bdsm, rape etc. description is not something to celebrate but may also something to feel disturbed about.

mrshouse · October 19, 2014 7:58 am

Interesting points, lilith and miriel. I don't agree with everything you say, but it's thoughtful and well balanced. I find the interview very interesting to read on the whole. I have one thing that bothered me the most which hasn't been mentioned so far: I did not at all like what B said about the motivation in fan fic to make the two fictional characters gay. In my opinion especially around this forum seeing some sort of romance does nothing have to do with removing a threatening element from the picture. Us Johnlockers never went searching for it, we try to support our opinion with arguments and picture shots and metas. We discuss in a polite way. The most of us can argue reasonably well what we don't like about a third leading character as it is pictured so far.
Just saying.

Last edited by mrshouse (October 19, 2014 7:59 am)

Tinks · October 19, 2014 8:45 am

Miriel, you make some great points - this one in particular: QUOTE:
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2. Poor florals ladies.... and there were suggestions that were they young and attractive he would have reacted differently. This is bull****t.

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END QUOTE

The whole "florals" outrage is an example of one of the reasons I'm trying to step away from the internet a bit (other than this discussion, LOL!!)
I'm not going to pretend that I love the way he comes across in this interview; it could be the journo's agenda, it could be that he was having an off day or maybe a bit of both, but there were parts of it I didn't like; that's OK, he's human, and if we expect him to perfect always then we are not doing ourselves, or him, any favours.
But the "Florals" thing is 100% Benedict speak! It's the kind of thing that usually people would find adorable and cute! Had it been two guys in spotted shirts and he'd called them the "polka dots" people would all be giggling at how funny he is.
The fact is the journalist - not Benedict - tagged them as "middle aged", thus ensuring that many have taken Benedict's shortening " those ladies in the floral dresses" into " florals" as kind of insulting term for older ladies; I really don't think this is the case and it seems such a crazy thing to take issue with.
It's just the kind of overreaction that goes on in internet-land that I find it really hard to understand.
Having an opinion is one thing, but people go completely overboard about such trivial stuff.

Last edited by Tinks (October 19, 2014 8:51 am)

besleybean · October 19, 2014 10:06 am

I just see all this as part of a whole wider picture and yes I know many of us have been discussing these issues.
1. Benedict is a human being. he has positives and negatives like the rest of us. We just have to decide whether the positives outweigh the negatives- or if we can accept the negatives.
2. But he is allowed to have bad days. Again,as long as they don't out weigh the good and depending how bad they are.
3, He will(like other celebs) be misquoted by journalists. But we dio have to accept that sometines he will express things we disgaree with and in a way we don't like.
4. He is an actor. We can still admire his work, even if we don't like anything else about him.
5. But we should be fair. Or,do we think celebs shoud keep higher standards than the rest of us?

Specifically on the fan art/fic views....
Why should he even be expected to comment on them at all? They are nothing to do with him and his life.
But if he does comment, he is perfectly entitled to say what he likes.
If we can't take it, we have to decide whether we still want to follow his work,
Highly educated, intelligent, professionl actors won't even consider fandom, in approaching their work.

But to add to what others have said, I keep drifting from both fandom and hero worship. They are not healthy.

Last edited by besleybean (October 19, 2014 10:10 am)

ancientsgate · October 19, 2014 10:14 am

besleybean wrote:
I just see all this as part of a whole wider picture and yes I know many of us have been discussing these issues.
1. Benedict is a human being. he has positives and negatives like the rest of us. We just have to decide whether the positives outweigh the negatives- or if we can accept the negatives.
2. But he is allowed to have bad days. Again,as long as they don't out weigh the good and depending how bad they are.
3, He will(like other celebs) be misquoted by journalists. But we dio have to accept that sometines he will express things we disgaree with and in a way we don't like.
4. He is an actor. We can still admire his work, even if we don't like anything else about him.
5. But we should be fair. Or,do we think celebs shoud keep higher standards than the rest of us?

Specifically on the fan art/fic views....
Why should he even be expected to comment on them at all? They are nothing to do with him and his life.
But if he does comment, he is perfectly entitled to say what he likes.
If we can't take it, we have to decide whether we still want to follow his work,
Highly educated, intelligent, professionl actors won't even consider fandom, in approaching their work.

Thank you, bb, all good points. You know something else I think is a problem in the Sherlock fandom? All of us are bored to death, always waiting for the next season. We're given so very little new material, every 3 years whether we need it or not! After everyone'd discussed the new stuff, then we all march into the next Sahara Desert of dry nothingness until the next season comes out. Inside that waiting time, there's too darned much opportunity for hyperbole, making things up, blowing small things up into large things, speculation, on and on it goes. BORED! I love Sherlock and John, and I think BC is handsome, funny, smart and interesting, but... there's just plain nothing going on most of the time. Sorry, I'm not too articulate, not sure if anyone gets what I'm saying, but there ya go, just a feeble attempt to understand why half the fandom sometimes gets into an uproar over small things. BORED!

Harriet · October 19, 2014 10:31 am

besleybean wrote:
Why should he even be expected to comment on them at all? They are nothing to do with him and his life.

Agree, that's why I wonder why he does it, after all.

besleybean wrote:
But if he does comment, he is perfectly entitled to say what he likes.

Agree. As well as others are perfectly entitled to react on his opinion. And also criticise what can be seen as lopsided.

SusiGo · October 19, 2014 10:33 am

Good point, ancientsgate, about the long wait and blowing up things out of proportion. And there is something else:
I do not know about other fandoms as I am just involved in this one but many people tend to project their own fantasies, insecurities, world views, political/sexual and other agendas onto this show (and the actors and other creative people involved). And when someone does or says something that does not conform with their views they get upset or, even worse, aggressive. And some journalists use this fact to stir up conflict in order to get attention for themselves (think of Caitlin Moran and the embarrassing fanfic incident).

besleybean · October 19, 2014 10:33 am

No1 I think Sherlock is the best TV ever and Benedict is my fave actor.
I think there is some truth in what you ALL say!
But I do think there are some issues with the fan girl thing in general.
I do hate(you may all have guessed) the constant teenage squeeing over sexy Ben pics.
His looks are part of his profession and this will be played upon.
His personality is also part of what is sold to us, for better or worse.
But he is a 38 year old man, who(relastically) has engaged in my more realtionships than the popular press manage to know about.
But most of us will never meet him and the idol thing is just a bit much for this old lady.I'm too jaded.

Last edited by besleybean (October 19, 2014 11:10 am)

ancientsgate · October 19, 2014 11:01 am

As an American, I'm more used to reading and seeing about the Hollywood A-listers, all of whom have handlers (assistants, PR agents, managers) that the celebs actually listen to. If their handlers say, "Be sure to talk about this," they do. If the handlers say, "If this comes up, don't touch it with a ten foot pole," they don't. Hair, make up, clothing, what comes out of their mouths, most Hollywood types realize how very quickly they can get into deep sh** with the public, and let's face it, pleasing the public is their bread and butter. So a lot of what the public sees and reads about their favorite celebs is highly manipulated to present a certain side to their fans, not just by the celebs and their handlers but also by the people (writers, editors, bloggers) who are anxious for everyone to buy their magazines and newspapers and visit their websites. There's real $$$ at stake. I usually believe what I actually see a celeb say in a TV interview (more or less), but I'm more suspicious about print media, where interview material could have been tinkered with in some way, either in outright misquotes or in change of tone or intent. I think we're pretty naive to just take everything at face value, not considering the fact that the celeb and everyone around him has their own agenda.

besleybean · October 19, 2014 11:17 am

Of course and one of the best quotes I read from Benedict, was when he said he's aware he contradicts himself all the time!
It seems that everybody around Benedict adores him and one would hope that was for just cause.
But there can sometimes be a bit of negativity around actor-fan interactions.
But regardless, I am also a tad suspicious of certain people who know and defend Benedict to the hilt. Just in case and on the odd chance their being associated with a popular celeb is their way of gaining self-accreditation.

Last edited by besleybean (October 19, 2014 11:18 am)

Lilith · October 19, 2014 11:19 am

mrshouse wrote:
I have one thing that bothered me the most which hasn't been mentioned so far: I did not at all like what B said about the motivation in fan fic to make the two fictional characters gay. In my opinion especially around this forum seeing some sort of romance does nothing have to do with removing a threatening element from the picture.

I know, I know, and i do get what you are saying here. Yet here is the way i see it: people have said that Benedict remarks come from being ignorant about the fan fiction. I am pretty sure he really doesn't know why it exists and what its purpose is. (just like me, haha). IMO what follows then is just the 2 of them kinda musing why there is fan fic and the interviewer suggest an idea. He begins his sentence with "perhaps" and offers an idea and it seems to make some sense for Benedict as he agrees (if he really did it "enthusiastically" we can not know). So they seem to be quite comfortable with having found some possible explanation and then they move on with their talk. You know, just like when something out there seems to mean a lot to some people but you don't really get why and you try to make sense, come up with an idea (correct of not) and then it is checked off cause it does not really matter to you. Know what i am trying to say?
Oh well, "fiction friction" will blow over and to end this on a lighter note, i suggest next time Benedict will say this ...not that i am trying to lecture him, i just think it bit funny )

Liberty · October 19, 2014 11:50 am

Lilith, I agree, and he seemed to be going for a kind, thoughtful reason, even if people haven't taken it that way. Why should he know why people write slash fiction?

SusiGo wrote:
Liberty: I do not think he was accused of being homophobic but of being insensitive or ignorant about the feelings and the psyche of teenage girls writing/reading fanfiction. IMO this was what caused the outcry on tumblr and elsewhere. This is an explanation, btw, not a justification of those statements.

There was some pretty nasty stuff out there when I looked (I probably shouldn't have! But I really couldn't see what fault people were finding with him and wanted to know). Even the article posted here implies it, but some people are saying it out loud. I'm not sure about bringing stuff from tumblr, etc., over here, but I was surprised at this one:

I'm going to remove the quote and the link to the writer, because she's not here to defend herself, but to summarisse - she claimed that Benedict came across as homophobic because he was complaining just about gay fanfiction (but said that it might be because straight men think female sexuality revolves around them). She also said he was obsessed with desexualising John and Sherlock's relationship.

I'd looked at this one because the writer is clearly intelligent, adult and thoughtful and I'd liked parts of her other posts, and they have been recommended on this forum. He has an "obsession" with desexualising the relationship, and comes across as homophobic? To me, that seems like an unwarranted and unfounded personal attack on him.

Last edited by Liberty (October 19, 2014 5:55 pm)

Harriet · October 19, 2014 12:05 pm

I'm just thinking Benedict keeps confusing erotic fan fiction with pron. His ideas seem to follow typical pron plots, and I also remember his question about fanfic in another context "Am I well endowed?"
Which I still find kind of embarrassing, like "Benedict, are you telling us here you are a secret Size Queen or what? I don' even want to know!"

I've read about 50 explicit fan fics so far, and I think in only one maybe two of them the size of someone's private parts was briefly mentioned. It doesn't seem to matter that much to writers and readers as it does to Benedict

Tinks · October 19, 2014 12:20 pm

For what it's worth, I think it's ridiculous for people to label him homophobic just because he's not keen on the fanfic ( and he doesn't actually say he doesn't like it - he just explores the reasons why some might see the romantic/sexual element in Sherlock and John's relationship.)
I personally think that because the fanfic Sherlock has his face, body etc., he perceives it as a character that he's created having a relationship that he doesn't see happening - that's just my take on it.
What is clear - to me anyway - is that he's not really sure HOW to react to it (hence sometimes joking eg: about his "size", sometimes seeming to encourage it, and sometimes to criticise) and actually, at various times, I think the same is true of everyone involved in the show - I simply think it is something they were never meant to be confronted with and shouldn't be confronted with.
Like I said, I may think there were better ways of expressing himself, but heck, the guy's an Actor, not a Diplomat - let's not hang draw and quarter him because he didn't shoot rainbows from his ass in one interview!
And now I'm beating a retreat for a bit because while I still love the guy and - more importantly - his WORK - this whole episode has left a bad taste in my mouth as far as the internet is concerned!

lil · October 19, 2014 4:46 pm

I feel like I should be wearing the I don't understand T-shirt.
BC is an almost middle aged man....why on earth would anyone expect him to be interested or even like romantic sexy or slashy fiction....haven't men scorned women for reading penny dreadfulls - bodice rippers - mills@boon type genre fiction since they existed.
Fanfiction is the 21st century version..but expecting a busy professional straight man to be into it...eh thats a big ask..hasn't this chagrined sulk by those people that do like it been going on forever...

I really liked the interview..where BC said about geniuses being different..that Turing should have been able to express love...and that everyone deserves to be loved and experience that in their lives....well!..Just what I think about Sherlock ..that could of expanded nicely.
On the no emo Sherlock comments...Sherlock is like that to everyone....John is the exception..ditto on expanding that to Sherlock.
I think BC does know Sherlock well..back when he took the role on he said he had to consider carefully..because he knew it would be iconic..and it is.

Though no doubt BC is prob a little peeved about interviewers fishing for Sherlock info because they know it will sell and get hits....when he is trying to , and supposed to be talking about other things..like Turing.

Harriet · October 19, 2014 4:53 pm

Nobody asks him to, lil. But if he talks about something in public, it's just fair to expect that he has some knowledge about the subject

Last edited by Harriet (October 19, 2014 4:55 pm)

Whisky · October 19, 2014 4:59 pm

miriel68 wrote:
the fanfiction feels not only free to take the likeness of real people and use it for (quite often) explicitly erotic/porn images and to write all kind of kinks about them

This is what I meant in my earlier post - do they really have to ask permission? I still think that playing a well known character is giving a part of yourself to that character. Since we have got TV and films, imagination isn't the only way we make up pictures of our heroes/favourite characters. Even a painted character will have certain features, which will be used.
How can you talk about a character if you're not allowed to give it distinct features? It's seems really far away from realitiy to expect everybody to do fanfiction just based on reading the canon. And I think in a way, famous actors can't expect that artwork will just *not* include their version of the character. In a way, it's a compliment I think, especially with Sherlock, to give such a strong new influence to an old character, also appearance. I really don't mind people using character pictures (different with just Benedict pictures of course). And honestly, what should Benedict care what they write about private parts... they write about Sherlock, not him. I really don't get the fuss about cheekbones and such. If Benedict gave the character distinctive features, well, they're out there now with the character appearance. Why should anyone now describe Sherlock different to the most popular appearance? There was Johnlock before Benedict, now there is Johnlock with cheekbones and curly hair... what's different? I don't want to say actors don't need respect and privacy, but I don't get this part. The only thing I would get is if Arthur Canon Doyle said: my character, my imagination, take your fingers off it and do your own. But even then - where does copyright start and public use stop?

miriel68 wrote:
and the propensity for the graphic bdsm, rape etc. description is not something to celebrate but may also something to feel disturbed about.

That's something I really agree on. I really don't mind fanfiction, but I wonder why people need to explore these areas in detail. Of course it makes for strong character development or change, but I always wonder if there aren't less disturbing ways to get a flawed / troubled character. I really like stories that try to explore characters, I just don't understand why they always have to be taken to these points. Also makes me uneasy, because what's the motivation? I don't think there should be taboos in fanfiction, but I don't really feel that rape fanfictions are there to break a taboo... I feel they're more often as I said for taking a character into a certain position, and I just feel there must be other, less disturbing ways to do that. I don't want to read it.

besleybean · October 19, 2014 4:59 pm

Well he at least knows the fan fic Caitlin made him and Martin read!

Zatoichi · October 19, 2014 5:03 pm

I know what some of you mean by drifting away from the internet and fandom.. I share those feelings.

Last edited by Zatoichi (October 19, 2014 5:43 pm)