I'm quite new to the series, so I haven't moved on yet . 

I think the end of S3 leaves a lot of questions, which I'm hoping will be answered in S4.  However, I watched the TEH within a couple of weeks of TRF, and found that it didn't answer all my questions.  It was quite frustrating!   There was never a full explanation (and I don't mean about how he did it).   I suspect it might be the same next time, and we'll still have to look at S3 for answers.

(I can accept what I'm shown, but the explanations given don't always work.  I think it's possible that Sherlock was made to die just for dramatic purposes, so that we could have that amazing mind palace scene, and the lovely imagery of him returning from the dead yet again.   But because they made him die, it becomes very difficult to accept his explanation that Mary didn't want to kill him). 

But to answer your question, yes, I do think it shows what Mary is capable of in S4.  She chose the violent option.  She has a baby on the way, and (I think) there are hints that that might make her even more dangerous (the comments in the books/series about love being a vicious motivator, and a woman always protecting her baby first).

It's making me nervous posting without an edit button!  Please excuse mistakes, rambling, etc.

Yes, she misjudges that in a big way.  Magnusson gets it - that threatening Sherlock himself isn't a good way to manipulate him, but appealing to that caring, protective side of him is. 

By shooting him, she only buys a little time - until he's conscious.  I think that's how long she expected him to keep quiet for (and she's right - he says her name on waking).   That's why she has to get in quickly and threaten him to keep the secret.  But it's a terrible plan.  She didn't know when he was going to wake up or what he would say (what if he'd managed to say more than just her name?).   And ironically, it's the fact of her shooting him, and later threatening him, that makes him reveal her secret.  If she'd appealed to him, he might have kept quiet, if he felt that was the right thing. 

After she'd threatened him, yes, I think she did expect him to lie to John forever.  He could have done - John doesn't know that he'd seen the attacker's face.   I don't think she thought that Sherlock would want to protect John from the knowledge, but thought that he would keep quiet if threatened, so yes, I think she got that wrong.  He would have protected John from the knowledge if he thought he should. 

(I know it seems unlikely that Sherlock would ever think keeping quiet was the right thing, but I think it's possible.  He tells John because he thinks John is in danger, not because he thinks John has a right to know.   If he'd kept quiet, he could have got the files from Magnusson, Mary and John and the baby would have been safe, and John could have been happy, with Sherlock carrying the burden of the truth.  Apart from John's right to know, there's no really good reason to tell him - nothing that would give a better outcome.  If he and Mary were to carry on as normal, the less people who know the better, including him.  Telling him makes them less safe.

Which always makes me think that Sherlock must have known or guessed something else, that made it imperative that he tell John so urgently). 

It's not clear how exactly she worked in her past life - how much was zipping in and taking somebody out without thinking about it, and how much was espionage and manipulation.  She doesn't seem very good at the manipulation side at all.  (And she needs Sherlock's intervention in the "understanding human nature" department to reconcile her with John too). 
 

I have contacted the admin, I cannot change the settings myself. 

I agree with you in many points. The funny thing is that she does not seem to use the time before he regains consciousness because there is no contact between her and John or her and Magnussen, at least nothing that we see. 
She also terribly misjudges John. He is a soldier and by now experienced in criminal investigation and he at once assumes that Sherlock must have seen the shooter's face. So she fails in that respect as well. 
You are right, her best chance would have been to spare Sherlock and let him help her. And I think it shows that she knows so very well how John would react to learning about her past that she does for the fastest but by far the worst solution. 
Yes, Sherlock may know something more. And for him it is imperative that John hears what has happened from Mary himself. For this he risks his own life. And this is what makes me believe that the scene in 221B is not Sherlock's true opinion but an act to make Mary think he is on her side and to keep John safe by making him stay with her, at least until Sherlock is well again. 
It is a bit like the roof scene in TRF - again he tells John things that are clearly hurtful in order to protect him. John probably would prefer to be told the truth and act for himself but this is what Sherlock does. 

The trouble with believing that it's programming, that Mary is acting automatically, is that it would make more sense to shoot both Magnusson and Sherlock dead and escape with no witnesses.   She doesn't do that because of John (apparently), so it looks like she doesn't act automatically.  She stops to formulate a plan.  In doing so, she shows that she hasn't read Sherlock correctly, and possibly not John either (I'm still thinking about that one, Susi). 

I'm still not sure about John wanting to know the truth.  He does burn the memory stick, after all.  I think he hasn't looked at, because Mary believes that he wouldn't love her if he did ... but then maybe she can't judge that. 

I agree that it's Sherlock that mentions the plan, not Mary, and in fact, he leads and controls that whole confrontation, and mediates between Mary and John.  He wants to keep them together (I was thinking about why in another thread).

nakahara wrote:

Being programmed doesn´t neccessarily mean she acts like a robot,

Yes, thank you. Glad someone gets it.

Mary

maryagrawatson wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Being programmed doesn´t neccessarily mean she acts like a robot,

Yes, thank you. Glad someone gets it.

Mary

What kind of programming are you speaking of? Is it your own definition or are you relying on some other theory?
 

Some remarks: 

I do not think Sherlock had it coming. Being an annoying dick and being shot is not quite on the same level. And we should not forget that John uses these words in order to show his loyalty to Sherlock. It is a crucial moment in TRF implying that John will never believe what the press or Moriarty say about Sherlock. And he kept his word. He always believed in Sherlock. 

So shooting someone is an alternative to reasoning? I think not. 

Let us assume for a moment that Sherlock had stayed away from Mary. What do you think would have happened? She threatened Magnussen to give her the documents. The documents did not exist. It would have been exactly the same situation as in Appledore and I am sure she would have shot Magnussen just like Sherlock did. And then of course she would have been forced to kill Sherlock because he was a witness. And imagine John would have followed Sherlock upstairs and become a witness, too? Would she have killed her husband as well? Sherlock let the police arrest him, telling John to keep away from him. I do not think Mary would have done the same. 

Sherlock betrayed Janine, this is true. But he was there on a case against a despicable man. A man who made Lord Smallwood commit suicide later on. And the scene in the hospital to me clearly shows their mutual understanding that they both did wrong, first him, then her, and now are even. 

 

Last edited by SusiGo (September 8, 2014 3:59 pm)

SusiGo wrote:

Some remarks: 

I do not think Sherlock had it coming. Being an annoying dick and being shot is not quite on the same level. And we should not forget that John uses these words in order to show his loyalty to Sherlock. It is a crucial moment in TRF implying that John will never believe what the press or Moriarty say about Sherlock. And he kept his word. He always believed in Sherlock. 

So shooting someone is an alternative to reasoning? I think not. 

Let us assume for a moment that Sherlock had stayed away from Mary. What do you think would have happened? She threatened Magnussen to give her the documents. The documents did not exist. It would have been exactly the same situation as in Appledore and I am sure she would have shot Magnussen just like Sherlock did. And then of course she would have been forced to kill Sherlock because he was a witness. And imagine John would have followed Sherlock upstairs and become a witness, too? Would she have killed her husband as well? Sherlock let the police arrest him, telling John to keep away from him. I do not think Mary would have done the same. 

Sherlock betrayed Janine, this is true. But he was there on a case against a despicable man. A man who made Lord Smallwood commit suicide later on. And the scene in the hospital to me clearly shows their mutual understanding that they both did wrong, first him, then her, and now are even. 

 

 
This.
John said the exact right sentence in that situation ("no one can be such an annoying dick all the time"), because he knows Sherlock for such a long time and knew exactly, that this was the only way to really convince Sherlock of his loyality. All nice words would have been useless.
And remember, that's the way they talk to each other a lot ("Idiot!  ....  ")!

I consider this sentence and the "“if you don’t shut up, you will not need morphine anymore” as "serious" as "you bastard!" from Lestrade. Right, there was a difference; John was very angry at that moment, but still...

When Mary told him to stay back or she would shoot him I'm sure Sherlock didn't believe her because in a way he trusted her!
Surely he didn't have it coming, and I don't think that Mary shot him because he was "such an annoying dick"! 

Last edited by Mattlocked (September 8, 2014 4:26 pm)

molly212 wrote:

My conclusion is the following: Sherlock had it coming. Sherlock routinely ignores threats (“no one can be such an annoying dick all the time”). In the scene where John threatened Sherlock “if you don’t shut up, you will not need morphine anymore”. What did Sherlock do? He completely ignores it. John and Lestrade tolerates it because they are loyal to Sherlock. Back to the bedroom scene: It was a very tense situation, and Mary warned Sherlock: “if you take one step forward, I swear to God that I will kill you.” Sherlock, true to character, ignored the warning. Mary is quickly losing control of the situation and she does not have time to reason with Sherlock. So she shoots him. She looked sincerely sorry after shooting Sherlock, so I do believe she does not want to kill him and did call for the medics.

 

Exactly, John and Lestrade never really hurt Sherlock because they are loyal to him and believe in his good side. Sherlock is completely convinced Mary will show the same loyalty towards him, so he appeals to their connection via John (when he calls her "Mrs. Watson") and takes a step forward.. but obviously her loyalty is not enough to let him take control. When given the choice of either letting Sherlock take over or gambling with his life she chose the latter.
Mary loses control of the situation, but apparently she doesn´t trust Sherlock enough to even consider him controlling the situation might not lead to harm for her. Either she doesn´t think he could understand her motives even though she is completely in the right (which means underestimating him) or she knows she has nothing convincing to tell him.

@Accepting the explanation and moving on: I missed my chance to overanalyse The Fall as I was late to the party, so I´ll overthink and analyze the death out of the Mary-conundrum now.. ^^